Friday, July 10, 2009

When obfuscating for Islam-- intentionally or not -- the truth goes . . . incognito

The truth about Islam and who's responsible for the conflict with it, exposed here:
incognito's lies no longer ... incognito
"I have a Bible that is one hundred years old and it has a map of Palestine in it. Palestine has been in existence since the times of the Romans. After WWII, the state of Israel was created and Palestine was wiped off the map."
Rome utterly destroyed the Jewish nation. The appellation was given to the land to humiliate its former occupants. [The name is a bastardization of "Philistine," one of Israel's historic enemies.]

There was no "Palestianian nation" in the sense for which you apparently wish.
"And Holy War originated in the Bible. “Do not fear them, for it is the Lord your God who fights for you.” – Deuteronomy 3:22. This is what you would call Holy War."
False.

Unlike jihad, the war commanded of Ancient Israel was limited to a specific people at a specific time and place.

The command to ". . . kill the unbelievers wherever you find them" (Qur'an 9:5) is for all times and places to be carried out by able-bodied Muslims and their supporters until the whole world is subdued under the tyranny of Allah.

The false equivalence you make here calls into question your ability (or willingness) to address this topic truthfully.
"In fact, much of the Old Testament has to do with the Hebrews slaying innocent people to take their land because God told them to."
False. Citations, please. Be specific.
"And since the Bible came first, I believe that the Koran is a reaction to it. Heathens, infidels..."
Obviously, chronology equals causation.

Qur'an is the perfect word of Allah. Offensive warfare against non-Muslims is central to it.

Along with ahadith and sira, Qur'an requires the conversion, subjugation and humiliation, or killing of all non-Muslims to make the world Islam.
"There was large-scale destruction of Jewish populations even before the establishment of Christianity as the state religion of the Roman Empire..."
Rome destroyed Israel over a century before it stopped using Christians as torches and chew toys.
"...Critics have faulted (new historians) for their failing to make use of available Arab sources."
Arabs never lie. Muhammed said, "War is deceit" (Bukhari Volume 4, Book 52, Number 268).

It should shock no one that nations execute policy based on their own (sometimes short-sighted) self-interest.

Neither should it surprise anyone that Israel might be reluctant to negotiate with terrorists (unlike President Bush).

Modern Israel was attacked by its neighbors repeatedly for the crime of existing as an Infidel nation on formerly Muslim-controlled soil.

Islam can never, ever, under any circumstances tolerate land that was once under the rule of Allah belonging again to Infidels.

That is why, more than any other supposed justification you can conjure up, the Muslim world hates Israel. Just ask Hamas:
"Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it."

"Israel, by virtue of its being Jewish and of having a Jewish population, defies Islam and the Muslims."

"The Islamic Resistance Movement believes that the land of Palestine is an Islamic Waqf consecrated for future Moslem generations until Judgement Day. It, or any part of it, should not be squandered: it, or any part of it, should not be given up."

"There is no solution for the Palestinian question except through Jihad. Initiatives, proposals and international conferences are all a waste of time and vain endeavors."

"After Palestine, the Zionists aspire to expand from the Nile to the Euphrates. When they will have digested the region they overtook, they will aspire to further expansion, and so on. Their plan is embodied in the "Protocols of the Elders of Zion", and their present conduct is the best proof of what we are saying."

"Allah is its [Hamas'] goal, the Prophet its model, the Qur’an its Constitution, Jihad its path and death for the case of Allah its most sublime belief."
incognito advocates racism and injustice

He begins with:
"In my previous life here at townhall I revealed that I came from a "religious right" background."
Connections to the military, now this. Are these claims supposed to add to your credibility?

[Truth] would be more effective.
"These are the authentic Christians from the Midwest - not the frauds represented here. They may not be as well informed in foreign policy as some but they are honest and they will not live a lie."
Clumsy ad hominem.
"Why do you delude yourselves? Do you never tire of sending your children off to war? The information age has reached the far corners of the earth."
No, we frauds love to see our sons and daughters maimed and butchered by the Religionists of Peace.
"If America has committed crimes in the past, wouldn’t it be the right thing to do to acknowledge that and condemn it – as we expect others to do – and seek forgiveness?"
A tu quoque non sequitur! You're convoluting your logical fallacies.
"Maybe Christians should ask themselves, 'What would Jesus do?'"
I doubt He would advocate allowing evil men to harm innocents.
"Nevertheless, he cannot grasp the significance of a hate crime law? I’m not buying it. He says it is “enhanced punishments for crimes committed because of thoughts that government especially disapproves…Mind-reading juries are required to distinguish causation from correlation.”
How is murder, rape, or any other violent crime not hateful?

"Hate crime" seems more often than not an attempt to punish one group of people for the crimes of others based on their ethnicity, as you confirm in your next statement:
"Hate crimes are necessary when there has been a history of violence and cruelty toward minorities"
So, one who commits a crime should receive special punishment because of his and his victim's ancestry?

That's racist! [Or at least, "ancestrist."]
"and where the abusers have the power to get away with it. Motive is a fundamental component of our justice system and always has been."
Motive is useful in distinguishing between harm done accidentally and intentionally.

Harm is harm. Why not deal with it justly?
"Americans have indulged themselves for far too long in the belief that we can just isolate ourselves, turn away and pretend that the rest of the world is just not there."
If you're talking about Allah's War Against Humanity, then yes.

For nearly fourteen centuries, non-Muslims have suffered at the hands of the faithful, and still our political, academic, and media elites prattle on about a "tiny minority of radicalist, fundamentalist, extremist, Islamist, Islamonazi, Islamofascist Jihadist-ists" -- if they mention Islam at all.

But you didn't mean that, did you?


More from incognito
"That is a ridiculous statement. Not one time did the Bush administration say we were going to war to right our past wrongs. Or rather - "our wrongs which weren't wrong at the time." BS. Ditto bin Laden and everything else."
The author was not referring to the President's justification for taking out Saddam, he was refuting your false claim that America leaves its mistakes unaddressed.
"And you freaks have the nerve to call me crazy. I don't recall ever, EVER, the U.S. government trying to recruit young people into the military for OIL or any other mercenary purpose."
Again, the author was not describing government policy, he was pointing out to you one likely result of our leaving the region to jihad's proponents.
"You obviously did not read my previous posts."
Your posts have a tinge of incoherence to them. Do you not see that?

And isn't it a little bit self-important to require others be familiar with your body of "work" before engaging with you in discussion?
"See them concerning the U.S. supporting strongman regimes as well as interfering and meddling where we never had any business, including Iran."
That would be under "Hind-sight is 20/20."

What do you about jihad now?
"I know all about colonization - the British in particular are especially guilty and I don't recall the U.S military trying to recruit young people to fix those problems, either. I guess it would only be fair, if what you say is true, to at least let the children in on it in school."
So, now America -- which according to you does nothing to address its past wrongs -- must address the (alleged) wrongs of others?

And it seems inaccurate to claim British colonization of obviously brutal, primitive, and intolerant "societies" was not beneficial for those under England's rule. In fact, since you know all about colonization, what did the Ahmadiyya say about the Queen's rule?

Unlike most Muslim sects, this one taught that since the Queen allowed them freedom to practice their religion and protected them from persecution at the hands of their fellow Muslims, they should not take up violent Jihad against it.

Finally, why do you not rail against Muslim imperialism? It's been ongoing around the world for nearly 1400 years.

Is it because everyone knows that only white Christians and Jews are evil?
"And if you are implying that my loved ones can enlist and then the administration can start an ill-conceived war and lie and BS all day long and leave them hanging while all the little Republicans refuse to sign up, then you are not much better than the people you're talking about, are you?"
That's more full of holes than a Fatah administrator's head at a Hamas clambake.

First, he was not saying that "your children should . . . ," he was saying that no one should be surprised if those who volunteer to go to war go to war.

Second, the war was not "ill-conceived," and neither did the President lie about Saddam's WMD.

The war against the tyrant was quite effective and -- according to both Clintons, Gore, Kerry, the UN, et al -- quite necessary.

What has been ill-conceived is the President's attempts to treat Islam as if it were a rational, decent, and moral belief system.

Once he recognizes that it is the truly moderate Muslim who perverts the "great world religion" -- not the jihadist -- then we can begin to deal much more effectively with our enemy.

Third, most members of the military tend to be conservative and all volunteered. In light of this, it seems contrary to reality to claim Republicans aren't "signing up. "

Fourth, to equate those who slaughter innocents to shouts of "Allahu Akbar!" with those who point out errors of fact and logic in defense of the West is not only immoral, it's suicidal.
"You conveniently ignore the fact that Israel slaughtered numerous indigenous tribes to take their land. That's the Holy War part I was talking about:"
Is that supposed to be a tu quoque argument or just a really bizarre non sequitur?

That Ancient Israel killed some [of the remnants of] particularly corrupt nations [which resisted dispossession because of their great evil] at God's command is a fact of history.

That that brief event ended (incomplete) thousands of years ago is also true.

Will you not condemn with comparable vigor Allah and his false prophet's universal and eternal commands to convert, subdue and humiliate, and kill non-Muslims to make the world Islam?
"THAT IS THE BEGINNING OF HOLY WAR."
It is not the beginning, and it is not jihad. The two are equivalent only to the ignorant and the deceitful.

You really ought to do some reading.
"they take back the land and establish the state of Israel as according to the Bible."
At least you admit the Jews have an ancient claim to the land. Most of your fellow apologists for jihad don't have the decency (or carelessness) to do so.

incognito speaks, and the world listens
"But, if the Koran is a reaction to the Holy War in the Bible and to the all of the invasions and occupations that have occurred throughout history"
Even the ones after Qur'an was written!

So, to you Muslim bloodlust and barbarism is the fault of the Jews and Europeans, even before they did it!

That is less than accurate. Qur'an is the revelation of Allah to Muhammad. Is the expressed will of his deity.

Jihad -- Islamic holy war -- is no reaction to anything Biblical, it is a tool used by Allah and his false prophet to extend his rule over all Mankind.

Undoubtedly (though nothing you've written here indicates it), your vast research has led you to discover what Islam's authoritative texts -- Qur'an, ahadith, and sira -- say about jihad.

You must know that Islamic warfare advanced through several stages over the course of Muhammad's career as the apostle of Allah.

Please tell us what they were.

Okay, let me help. In the beginning, when Mohammed was politically, economically, and militarily weak, cooperation, not violence, was taught.

Later, as Muhammad grew in power, defensive warfare was allowed, then it was required.

Finally, at the end of his revelations, Allah required offensive warfare to make the world Islam.

And what did Muhammad say about this use of violence? Here is a sample:
". . . the Messenger of Allah . . . would say: 'Fight in the name of Allah and in the way of Allah. Fight against those who disbelieve in Allah. Make a holy war . . . . When you meet your enemies who are polytheists, invite them to three courses of action. . . . Invite them to (accept) Islam. . . . If they refuse to accept Islam, demand from them the Jizya. . . . If they refuse to pay the tax, seek Allah's help and fight them . . .'" (Muslim Book 019, Number 4294).

"...fight and slay the Pagans wherever ye find them, and seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war) . . . " (Qur’an 9:5).

"Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued" (Qur'an 9:29).

". . . fight them [Unbelievers] on until there is no more tumult or oppression, and there prevail justice and faith in Allah altogether and everywhere . . . " (Qur'an 8:38, 39).

"O ye who believe! fight the unbelievers who gird you about, and let them find firmness in you: and know that Allah is with those who fear Him" (Qur'an 9:123).

"Fighting is prescribed for you, and ye dislike it. But it is possible that ye dislike a thing which is good for you, and that ye love a thing which is bad for you." (Qur'an 2:216).

"Allah's Apostle said: 'I have been ordered (by Allah) to fight against the people until they testify that none has the right to be worshipped but Allah and that Muhammad is Allah's Apostle . . . '" (Bukhari Volume 1, Book 2, Number 24).

“A man came to Allah’s Apostle and said, ‘Instruct me as to such a deed as equals Jihad in reward.’ He replied, ‘I do not find such a deed’” (Bukhari Volume 4, Book 52, Number 44).

"Remember thy Lord inspired the angels (with the message): 'I am with you: give firmness to the Believers: I will instill terror into the hearts of the Unbelievers: smite ye above their necks and smite all their finger-tips off them'" (Qur'an 8:12).

“Allah’s Apostle said, ‘I have been made victorious with terror. The treasures of the world were brought to me and put in my hand’” (Bukhari Volume 4, Book 52, Number 220).
incognito continues:
"I don’t see how the West’s involvement in the establishment of the state of Israel could make things anything but worse. Much worse. And, our continued meddling and interference, how is that going to make things better? Do you honestly believe this is going to solve anything? Do you honestly believe that denying the obvious is going to work?"
Let's see, we interfered in this little thing called World War II. That worked out for quite a few of the nations involved, even the antagonists.

I supported President Bush's toppling of Saddam.

From the moment the first American was killed by a suicide bomber at a checkpoint, I have opposed the President sacrificing our people's well-being in an effort to safeguard theirs.

And as I have learned more about Islam's deity, founder, and history, I have become ever more disgusted with the efforts to "win Muslim hearts and minds." The truly Muslim heart and mind sees the sacrifice of Infidel blood and treasure only as a proper tribute to the supremacy of Islam and the Muslim.

We ought to allow Shia and Sunni to work out their little disagreements with each other the way they always have.

We should rescue the Christians, Jews, and other non-Muslims from Dar al-Islam, and not one more Infidel dime should go to any nation which refuses to recant their faith in the deity of blood.
"al-Qaida is in sixty countries and then there are the other extremist groups, I don’t think their goal is really to kill all the infidels so much as to get them out of their business. Maybe get some accountability."
Speaking out of ignorance does not add to your credibility.

The faithful Muslim will adhere to the command and example of Mohammed, and violent Jihad is only one tool to be used in accomplishing his goal, the subjugation of Humanity under the tyranny of Allah.
"You say this is false and that much of the Old Testament does not have to do with slaying innocent people to take their land."
I wrote that your assertions were false, including this "much of the Old Testatment" falsehood.

I asked for you to provide specific citations to demonstrate that "much of the Old Testament" had to do with genocide. Not too successful with that search, I assume?
"Many times, they killed every living thing including women and children, animals and crops."
Neither "many" nor "every" is true. But since you just advised me not to come in here and talk about things of which I know nothing, you must already know that!
"That is not so different than – “I will expel the Jews and Christians from the Arabian Peninsula and will not leave any but Muslim.”
There are quite a few differences, incognito. Are you unable or unwilling to admit them?
"I never said there was a “state” called Palestine. I said there are maps in Bibles that call this place Palestine and now, when you look at a map, there is no longer a Palestine. Plain and simple."
So, now you're claiming you made a statement of fact apart from any sort relevance to your argument or the thread?

That is unsurprising.
"Your point seems to be that because it is a specific thing in the Koran that, somehow, supersedes all practical reasons."
No, my point is that the Source and Sustenance of global jihad is the will of Allah and the example of his apostle.

It is only reasonable to expect that the faithful will strive to carry out their god and founder's commands (especially when they say that's what they are doing!).

Your repeated arguments of moral equivalence, "It's the Jews' fault!" and "Islam does it because the Bible did!" are false.
"The point I am trying to make is that with the West and particularly the U.S. supplying aid and weapons to Israel for decades, the Palestinian people are fighting back the only way they can – like it or not – and I don’t think they are going to stop any time soon, just because the world disapproves of their methods."
Here again you're attributing responsibility and blame to the U.S. and Israel for Muslim terrorism. That's intellectually dishonest and morally corrupt, and it's just what Islam does: "It's your fault for defending yourselves!"
"Also, if you all feel so strongly about this why aren't you signing up to fight these people? There has never been enough troops in Iraq and I think this country has just about asked for enough sacrifices from the troops and people like you should put up or shut up."
"you all"? "people like you"?

A false, ad hominem argument made from ignorance. Why not address the facts?

The President needs to recognize Islam makes it impossible to persuade its adherents with anything other than force, and -- instead of using our military as policemen -- let them do what they do better than anyone else.

incognito's inexcusable incognizance
"We have no right, whatsoever, to meddle in the Middle East, period. Not for oil, not to establish a foothold there, nothing."
9/11.