Obvious truths?

Yes, if you're willing to read honestly.

Two replies, one offered to a Roman Catholic who is afraid to deal with the Word of God as the Word of God, and the other to an atheist who is either so uninformed or so perverse as to try to undermine the faith of the weak.

From here (pending moderation):

To Rose:

Facts are facts.

If the history -- even in the Old Testament -- isn't true, then you can't trust Christ, Who said that it is.

You're not only "not Sola Scriptura" -- by the way, neither are Southern Baptists, even though they [might] think they are -- you're not any Scriptura.

You need to rethink that.

To Hiker:

With regard to your so-called "contradictions":

1) The Creation accounts (not "stories") do not conflict; they focus on the event from two different perspectives.

Both accounts were written by the same author, Moses, who was educated in all the wisdom of the ancient world. Don't you think that he would have noticed that he was "contradicting" himself? And the people of ancient Israel, to whom this subject matter was Life-and-Death and who preserved Moses' writings as the very words of God -- don't you think someone (everyone!) would have noticed? "Hey, wait a minute, Moses ...."

2) "Two different flood stories"? Genesis is still written by Moses.

3) The fact that you have to ask where was Jesus born and where His parents lived indicates that you're either intellectually-lazy or cravenly-dishonest, since the answer is available to anyone who can read. [The tone of this line bothers me, but taken in context, it seems necessary, since Hiker is not asking honestly; he's trying to destroy Rose's faith.]

Christ was born in Bethlehem, in a manger. When the Magi (number unstated) find Him, it's close to two years later, which we know from the historical record: Herod ordered the slaughter of all male babies two-years-old and younger based on the time of Christ's birth he learned from the wise men:

"Then Herod, when he saw that he had been tricked by the wise men, became furious, and he sent and killed all the male children in Bethlehem and in all that region who were two years old or under, according to the time that he had ascertained from the wise men" (Matthew 2:16).)

4) As for Bethlehem or Nazareth? No one's ever moved from one city to another, have they?

"And Joseph also went up from Galilee, from the town of Nazareth, to Judea, to the city of David, which is called Bethlehem, because he was of the house and lineage of David [...]" (Luke 2:4). 

"And when they had performed everything according to the Law of the Lord, they returned into Galilee, to their own town of Nazareth [...]" (Luke 2:39). 

5) Archaeology has uncovered another reign as governor/proconsul for someone named Quirinius, because, you know, no one's ever been named the same as someone else or served in an office twice.

[Luke calls Pontius Pilate "governor of Judea" in Luke 3, even though Pilate was "procurator"; Luke used the word to mean "one who governs" and not necessarily as a title. Luke also notes that the Luke 2 census was the "first" while Quirinius was governor; he notes a later census under Quirinius in Acts 5. Finally, Vardaman notes microletters on the Lapis Venetus also placing Quirinius as proconsul of Syria and Cilicia c. 12/11 B.C.]

Your objections are simplistic, dishonest, and stale. You're neither reading nor thinking for yourself, or you're hoping only to undermine the faith of others.

Perhaps, Hiker, it's time for you to reexamine your religion. And your motives.

If you want to know if you're a Christian, look at yourself, see your sins, and then look to Christ

Anyone who can look at himself and find reason for confidence before God is a liar, for we sin daily and much. And so a gospel which depends on us in any way is no Gospel at all.

Offered in response to someone looking at himself to know if he is saved:

You’re making up your own canon and not simply stating what God has revealed.

What did Paul say when he inspected his own fruit?

“I am of the flesh, sold under sin. For I do not understand my own actions. For I do not do what I want, but I do the very thing I hate [. . .] For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh. For I have the desire to do what is right, but not the ability to carry it out. I do not do the good I want, but the evil I do not want is what I keep on doing” (Romans 7).

(The Greek for “keep on doing” is “prasso,” which means “to do habitually.”)

So, Paul hadn’t “licked” the “evil” he “hated” but committed it “habitually.” By your standard, he was no Christian.

What was Paul’s answer to this dilemma? “Wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord!” (Romans 7).

What does Christ say about what we should see when we look inside ourselves? Should we see our good works, or should we see our sin and then . . . our Savior?

“Two men went up into the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. The Pharisee, standing by himself, prayed thus: ‘God, I thank you that I am not like other men, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even like this tax collector. I fast twice a week; I give tithes of all that I get.’ But the tax collector, standing far off, would not even lift up his eyes to heaven, but beat his breast, saying, ‘God, be merciful to me, a sinner!’

“I tell you, this man went down to his house justified, rather than the other. For everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, but the one who humbles himself will be exalted” (Luke 18).

God does not save those who are only imaginary sinners. Be honest about just how bad your sins really are, because Christ paid for them all. Here’s great news for the wicked, from Martin Luther [. . .]:

“If you are a preacher of mercy, do not preach an imaginary but the true mercy. If the mercy is true, you must therefore bear the true, not an imaginary sin. God does not save those who are only imaginary sinners. Be a sinner, and let your sins be strong, but let your trust in Christ be stronger, and rejoice in Christ who is the victor over sin, death, and the world.

“We will commit sins while we are here, for this life is not a place where justice resides. We, however, says Peter (2. Peter 3:13) are looking forward to a new heaven and a new earth where justice will reign. It suffices that through God’s glory we have recognized the Lamb who takes away the sin of the world. No sin can separate us from Him, even if we were to kill or commit adultery thousands of times each day. Do you think such an exalted Lamb paid merely a small price with a meager sacrifice for our sins?

“Pray hard for you are quite a sinner.”

Like the tax collector, St. Paul, and Martin Luther, when we look at ourselves, we should see our sin and then look to the Son of God Who gave His life for sins of the world. If you want to know if you are a Christian, see your sins, and look to Christ.

If someone won't believe Moses -- or their lyin' eyes -- then they won't believe even if Someone rises from the dead

Offered in response at a friend's excellent site:

one of the key claims of evolution -- namely, that the changes in life forms are the product of chance alone -- is not properly a scientific claim as it is not open to testing or verification.

The problem for Darwinian evolution is that all observation shows that it never occurs. Random genetic mutations happen, but they're normally harmful or fatal to the organism. They never add newer, more complex program/structure/function.

If Life is constantly evolving into newer, more complex forms, then how can anyone catch a coelacanth, a fish contemporaneous with the tyrant lizards?

If in five hundred million years, coelacanth evolved into . . . coelacanth, then how did some ape-like organism(s) evolve in only a few million years into Man?

The best Darwinists can do in defense of their creation myth is Lenski's E. Coli, and what do they show? After tens of thousands of generations, the bacteria evolved into . . . bacteria!

The Darwinists demonstrate their inability (or unwillingness) to deal honestly with facts also in how they address the T. Rex red blood cells discovered in Montana. At first, they did everything they could to avoid admitting that red blood cells were discovered in a fossil at least (according to them) 65 million years old. Then, rather than revise their assumptions with regard to dating, they instead suggested that protein has a longer shelf life than they realized!

(And really, moving the goalposts is all that's left to those who believe that Man arose accidentally from microbes by way of maggots, mice, and monkeys. That and name-calling.)

At what point of certainty do you accept a scientific finding?

Observable fact. Whether it's Science or Religion, without observable fact, all you've got is fiction.

No scientist observed the Big Bang (anyway, who's ever heard of explosions building things?). No Darwinist has ever observed abiogenesis (so much so, that they run from the topic). And no one's ever observed a bird hatch from a reptile egg.

Darwinism isn't Science, it's science fiction.

Yet we've got sixteen hundred years of eyewitness accounts of YHWH's intervening in human affairs -- culminating with the Crucifixion and Resurrection -- preserved by the societies in which they occurred.

Histories written, words recorded, monuments made, and worshiped as a god. Yet no one denies the historicity of Julius Caesar. Even allegedly-hostile, non-Christian history calling Christ a "sorcerer" acknowledges (unwillingly, no doubt) His miracles, and still the evolutionists mock.

Two thousand years ago, Paul observed that God's eternal power and divine nature are obvious in the Creation. If someone won't believe Moses -- or their lyin' eyes -- then they won't believe even if Someone rises from the dead.

Christians have no reason to be ashamed.  All have reasons to believe.

First-century Jewish-Roman historian Flavius Josephus confirms essential elements of the Apostles' testimony regarding Jesus of Nazareth

Jesus declared that if someone won't believe Moses, they won't believe even if Someone rises from the dead. For those who care about the truth and question honestly, the Prophets' foretelling and the Apostles' reporting should be enough; but if you need more, below is an authoritative, non-Christian, Jewish, Roman, extra-biblical historical reference to Jesus. Note that all three versions of the passage (one "reconstructed" -- that's scholar-speak for "I made stuff up!") confirm what the first Christians reported regarding Jesus.

Here's the first version of the passage from a Greek translation in which Josephus describes Christ as "wise," "a doer of wonderful works," "a teacher of men who receive the truth," attracting "many" Jews and Gentiles, and that "he appeared to them alive again the third day" (end notes in the original):

Now there was about this time Jesus, a wise man, if it be lawful to call him a man; for he was a doer of wonderful works, a teacher of such men as receive the truth with pleasure. He drew over to him both many of the Jews and many of the Gentiles. He was [the] Christ. And when Pilate, at the suggestion of the principal men amongst us, had condemned him to the cross, those that loved him at the first did not forsake him; for he appeared to them alive again the third day; as the divine prophets had foretold these and ten thousand other wonderful things concerning him. And the tribe of Christians, so named from him, are not extinct at this day.

Next is the same passage from an Arabic translation. This one adds "virtuous" to the descriptors. Even though a bit less personal in tone, it confirms the fact that His "many . . . disciples . . . reported that he had appeared to them after his crucifixion and that he was alive":

At this time there was a wise man who was called Jesus. And his conduct was good, and he was known to be virtuous. And many people from among the Jews and the other nations became his disciples. Pilate condemned him to be crucified and to die. And those who had become his disciples did not abandon his discipleship. They reported that he had appeared to them after his crucifixion and that he was alive; accordingly, he was perhaps the Messiah concerning whom the prophets have recounted wonders.

And for those who don't mind impugning the integrity of the Christian scribes who preserved Josephus' works, here is a "reconstruction" of the passage in a much more hostile tone. Even when mocking Christ and His followers, the same basic facts regarding Jesus are admitted: His miracles ("wizard of a man," "if indeed he may be called a man," "most monstrous of men," "having done wonders such as no man has ever done," "astonishing tricks"), His being called "Son of God" and "Messiah," His many followers ("seduced many Jews and many also of the Greek nation"), and His resurrection from the dead ("it seemed to them . . . he had appeared to them alive again"). Note also that even this fictional, antagonistic version of Josephus admits that the "divinely-inspired prophets had foretold -- these and ten thousand other wonderful things -- concerning him."

R. Eisler's "scholarly reconstruction":

Now about this time arose an occasion for new disturbances, a certain Jesus, a wizard of a man, if indeed he may be called a man, who was the most monstrous of men, whom his disciples call a son of God, as having done wonders such as no man has ever done.... He was in fact a teacher of astonishing tricks to such men as accept the abnormal with delight.... And he seduced many Jews and many also of the Greek nation, and was regarded by them as the Messiah.... And when, on the indictment of the principal men among us, Pilate had sentenced him to the cross, still those who before had admired him did not cease to rave. For it seemed to them that having been dead for three days, he had appeared to them alive again, as the divinely-inspired prophets had foretold -- these and ten thousand other wonderful things -- concerning him. And even now the race of those who are called 'Messianists'[*] after him is not extinct.

*"Christ" is Greek for the Hebrew "Messiah."

We know how it ends

We will endure evil in this life, but the good news is, we know all ends well.  From here:

He will swallow up death forever, and the Lord GOD will wipe away tears from all faces; the rebuke of His people He will take away from all the earth; for the LORD has spoken. And it will be said in that day: "Behold, this is our God; we have waited for Him, and He will save us. This is the LORD; we have waited for Him; we will be glad and rejoice in His salvation" (Isaiah 25:8-9).

When bad things happen to people who thought they were too good to have bad things happen to them

Suffering.

Those with an agenda against God often use human suffering as "proof" that there is no God or, if He exists, He is not good. Even those who believe in Him can interpret their own suffering as an indication that God has abandoned them or doesn't love them quite as much as they thought.

People try to make money writing books about why "bad things happen to good people," but if we're honest, then we must admit that there is no good in us. We know that we deserve nothing good from God. We know that many times, the pain we endure is the direct result of our own stupidity (or others'). In light of our sin, the question should not be, "Why do we suffer?" but, "Why don't we suffer more?" So then comes the sneaking suspicion that, "If I'm suffering, God must be punishing me."

What does He say?

First, He says that sickness and death are the results of our sin. It's our fault in a general sense. In the Garden of Eden, in the middle of a Perfect World, Adam and Eve sinned, and we're still living with the consequences. Of this Paul writes:

sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned . . . death reigned from Adam to Moses . . . many died through one man's trespass . . . the judgment following one trespass brought condemnation . . . because of one man's trespass, death reigned through that one man . . . one trespass led to condemnation for all men . . . by the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners . . . sin reigned in death (Romans 5).

What was God's response to our first parents' sin? Hoops through which to jump? Law after law after impossible law? Fire and brimstone? Hell itself? No, God's response was mercy, the promise of a Savior, the Messiah, a Child Who would destroy the devil's work ("crush the serpent's head"). There were consequences to Adam and Eve's sin (the Curses), but those were intended to drive us to the Savior. In this context, it is worth noting that the statements of Law, death, and condemnation in Romans 5 noted above are followed immediately by the greater mercy of God, which is found in Christ alone:

the free gift is not like the trespass . . . much more have the grace of God and the free gift by the grace of that one man Jesus Christ abounded for many. And the free gift is not like the result of that one man's sin . . . the free gift following many trespasses brought justification . . . much more will those who receive the abundance of grace and the free gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man Jesus Christ . . . one act of righteousness [Christ's] leads to justification and life for all men . . . by the one man's [Christ's] obedience the many will be made righteous . . . where sin increased, grace abounded all the more, so that, as sin reigned in death, grace also might reign through righteousness leading to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord (Romans 5).

What else do we find in Scripture regarding human suffering?

The Apostle Peter warned against suffering because of our own sin: "let none of you suffer as a murderer or a thief or an evildoer or as a meddler" (1 Peter 4:15). Even heroes of the faith suffered publicly for their sin. For example, Moses was not allowed to enter the Promised Land (however, even in this God was merciful to Moses, for not only did He allow Moses to see the Promised Land before he died, but God buried him Himself and included him in the revelation of Christ's glory to the Apostles on the Mount of Transfiguration).

Christ explained that sometimes we suffer so that God can show His power in us:

As he [Jesus] passed by, he saw a man blind from birth. And his disciples asked him, "Rabbi, who sinned, this man or his parents, that he was born blind?" Jesus answered, "It was not that this man sinned, or his parents, but that the works of God might be displayed in him. We must work the works of him who sent me while it is day; night is coming, when no one can work. As long as I am in the world, I am the light of the world." Having said these things, he spat on the ground and made mud with the saliva. Then he anointed the man's eyes with the mud and said to him, "Go, wash in the pool of Siloam" (which means Sent). So he went and washed and came back seeing (John 9:1-7).

Because the devil, the world, and our sinful nature war against Christ and His people, sometimes we suffer only because we're Christians. Jesus warned, "If the world hates you, know that it has hated me before it hated you." (John 15:18). We see also from the author of Hebrews a listing of the "great cloud of witnesses," heroes of the faith.  Notice that after listing wonderful, miraculous, glorious victories -- "conquered kingdoms . . . stopped the mouths of lions . . . became mighty in war . . . [and] resurrection," come those believers who were tortured, mocked, flogged, chained, stoned, sawn in two:

And what more shall I say? For time would fail me to tell of Gideon, Barak, Samson, Jephthah, of David and Samuel and the prophets-- who through faith conquered kingdoms, enforced justice, obtained promises, stopped the mouths of lions, quenched the power of fire, escaped the edge of the sword, were made strong out of weakness, became mighty in war, put foreign armies to flight. Women received back their dead by resurrection. Some were tortured, refusing to accept release, so that they might rise again to a better life. Others suffered mocking and flogging, and even chains and imprisonment. They were stoned, they were sawn in two, they were killed with the sword. They went about in skins of sheep and goats, destitute, afflicted, mistreated -- of whom the world was not worthy -- wandering about in deserts and mountains, and in dens and caves of the earth. And all these, though commended through their faith . . . (Hebrews 11).

God causes us to grow through suffering:

More than that, we rejoice in our sufferings, knowing that suffering produces endurance, and endurance produces character, and character produces hope, and hope does not put us to shame, because God's love has been poured into our hearts through the Holy Spirit who has been given to us (Romans 5:3-5).

Beloved, do not be surprised at the fiery trial when it comes upon you to test you, as though something strange were happening to you. But rejoice insofar as you share Christ's sufferings, that you may also rejoice and be glad when his glory is revealed. If you are insulted for the name of Christ, you are blessed, because the Spirit of glory and of God rests upon you . . . For it is time for judgment to begin at the household of God (1 Peter 4:12-14, 17).

Sometimes God uses our suffering to accomplish the saving of others, as we see in Joseph and the persecution of the first Christians:

'Say to Joseph, Please forgive the transgression of your brothers and their sin, because they did evil to you.' And now, please forgive the transgression of the servants of the God of your father." Joseph wept when they spoke to him. His brothers also came and fell down before him and said, "Behold, we are your servants." But Joseph said to them, "Do not fear, for am I in the place of God? As for you, you meant evil against me, but God meant it for good, to bring it about that many people should be kept alive, as they are today. So do not fear; I will provide for you and your little ones." Thus he comforted them and spoke kindly to them (Genesis 50:17-21).

And Saul approved of his execution. And there arose on that day a great persecution against the church in Jerusalem, and they were all scattered throughout the regions of Judea and Samaria, except the apostles. Devout men buried Stephen and made great lamentation over him. But Saul was ravaging the church, and entering house after house, he dragged off men and women and committed them to prison. Now those who were scattered went about preaching the word (Acts 8:1-4).

Sometimes when we suffer, we can't know why (see Job), but we do know that no matter what happens to us, God is with us, working through all things -- both good and bad -- for our benefit. Recall Joseph's gracious restoration of his brothers just noted and the words of the Apostle Paul:

we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to his purpose" (Romans 8:28).

The ultimate answer to every question of eternal consequence is Christ. What did the Son of God endure for us? The only person in the history of the world who deserved only good endured great evil on our account. God abandoned His only Son to torture and death for our salvation:

He was despised and rejected by men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief; and as one from whom men hide their faces he was despised, and we esteemed him not. Surely he has borne our griefs and carried our sorrows; yet we esteemed him stricken, smitten by God, and afflicted. But he was wounded for our transgressions; he was crushed for our iniquities; upon him was the chastisement that brought us peace, and with his stripes we are healed. All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned--every one--to his own way; and the LORD has laid on him the iniquity of us all (Isaiah 53:3-6).

in Christ God was reconciling the world to himself, not counting their trespasses against them (2 Corinthians 5:19).

Whoever makes a practice of sinning is of the devil, for the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the works of the devil (1 John 3:8).

And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself" (John 12:32).

Because of Christ, we will live what the Beloved Apostle only witnessed in his revelation:

. . . I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and the sea was no more. And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, "Behold, the dwelling place of God is with man. He will dwell with them, and they will be his people, and God himself will be with them as their God. He will wipe away every tear from their eyes, and death shall be no more, neither shall there be mourning, nor crying, nor pain anymore, for the former things have passed away

[. . .]

I saw no temple in the city, for its temple is the Lord God the Almighty and the Lamb. And the city has no need of sun or moon to shine on it, for the glory of God gives it light, and its lamp is the Lamb (Revelation 21).

Thanks be to God!

Unlike Allah (and all other gods, in fact), YHWH's miracles were done in plain sight, in history; no secret Moon-splitting, midnight flights, nor "divine revelations" on the word of one, utterly-depraved criminal

A few thoughts on religious matters, offered to a friend . . .

It is wise to be skeptical.

Unlike Allah (and all other gods, in fact), YHWH's miracles were done in plain sight, in history; no secret Moon-splitting, midnight flights, nor "divine revelations" on the word of one, utterly-depraved criminal.

From a plain reading of the Joshua passage you note (an historical account not necessarily devoid of symbolic meaning; when you're the Author of the universe, you can have both), the day standing still was intended primarily to allow Israel to defeat its enemies.

On the other hand, YHWH's defeating Egypt when He delivered Israel from slavery there and their preservation during forty years of wandering were intended to show His power and mercy.

Christ's miracles too were intended as signs so that Israel (and we) would believe that He was (is) the Promised Messiah, but even those were considered by Him as secondary; His person and words should be enough:

Philip said to him, "Lord, show us the Father, and it is enough for us."

Jesus said to him, "Have I been with you so long, and you still do not know me, Philip? Whoever has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, 'Show us the Father'? Do you not believe that I am in the Father and the Father is in me?

The words that I say to you I do not speak on my own authority, but the Father who dwells in me does his works. Believe me that I am in the Father and the Father is in me, or else believe on account of the works themselves" (John 14:8-11).

Unlike Muhammad's self-serving fusion of the "religious" and the political, Christ made a careful distinction between the two.

Faith in Him has nothing to do with societal majorities or being acceptable to friends, neighbors, or countrymen.

Jesus came to make us sinners acceptable to God. He came to bear our sins and be our Savior, to reconcile us to His Father in His body on the cross.

Christ does not demand that anyone believe, "Because I said so," or, "Believe, or else!"

He proved His power and love over and over again in public, in front of the whole world, in full view of multiple eyewitnesses (including hostile ones), in history.

As He did with Unbelieving (not "Doubting") Thomas -- who would not believe in the Resurrected Christ unless he saw and touched His wounds -- so Jesus does with us:

Now Thomas, one of the Twelve, called the Twin, was not with them when Jesus came. So the other disciples told him, "We have seen the Lord."

But he said to them, "Unless I see in his hands the mark of the nails, and place my finger into the mark of the nails, and place my hand into his side, I will never believe."

Eight days later, his disciples were inside again, and Thomas was with them. Although the doors were locked, Jesus came and stood among them and said, "Peace be with you." Then he said to Thomas, "Put your finger here, and see my hands; and put out your hand, and place it in my side. Do not disbelieve, but believe."

Thomas answered him, "My Lord and my God!"

Jesus said to him, "Have you believed because you have seen me? Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed."

Now Jesus did many other signs in the presence of the disciples, which are not written in this book; but these are written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name" (John 20:24-31).

Let your sins be strong, for God does not save those who are only imaginary sinners

Be honest about just how bad your sins really are, because Christ paid for them all.

Great news for the wicked, from here:

If you are a preacher of mercy, do not preach an imaginary but the true mercy. If the mercy is true, you must therefore bear the true, not an imaginary sin. God does not save those who are only imaginary sinners. Be a sinner, and let your sins be strong, but let your trust in Christ be stronger, and rejoice in Christ who is the victor over sin, death, and the world.

We will commit sins while we are here, for this life is not a place where justice resides. We, however, says Peter (2. Peter 3:13) are looking forward to a new heaven and a new earth where justice will reign. It suffices that through God's glory we have recognized the Lamb who takes away the sin of the world. No sin can separate us from Him, even if we were to kill or commit adultery thousands of times each day. Do you think such an exalted Lamb paid merely a small price with a meager sacrifice for our sins?

Pray hard for you are quite a sinner.

--Martin Luther to Philip Melanchthon,
on the day of the Feast of St. Peter the Apostle, 1521

We know that Jesus is the Son of God because that is what He said of Himself

When Someone Who committed no sin, spoke only the truth, healed the sick, raised the dead, died for the sins of the whole world, and overcame death by His resurrection makes an objective truth claim, you ought to listen to Him.

Alen writes in defense of Muhammad:

How? Show us your proof. How cna messenger/prophet Jesus be a son of god? And how come there is a clear difference between Jesus and God in The Bible, NT?
Jesus was a human, he was put in the womb of the virgin Mary, got born, lived, delivered The Message from God and was raised to Heaven.
Jews think they crucified him.
Oops.

A few quick points

1) It is a bit ironic that someone who believes that a blaspheming, genocidal, murdering, raping, mutilating, enslaving, vandalizing, extorting, thieving, lying pedophile was a prophet of the living God is asking for "proof."

What proof do you have for believing Muhammad? Is it the gratuitous beheadings, chronic child rape, or rampant slavery?

2) It is not "a" son of god, it is the Son of God.

3) It is not a "clear difference between Jesus and God," but a clear distinction made between God the Son and God the Father.

4) YHWH created the universe. Is incarnation too difficult for Him?

5) Everyone who witnessed Christ being crucified thought Christ was crucified because . . . Christ was crucified.

6) You do know that early in Islam's history, variant readings of Qur'an were collected and destroyed? That Muhammad tried to change revelations?

Proof

We know that Jesus is the Son of God because that is what He said of Himself.

His Father, the Prophets, and the Apostles all testify to this.

Your false prophet correctly stated that what Moses, the Prophets of YHWH, and Christ preached originally was true. His error was in claiming that Jews and Christians had corrupted those revelations.

Christ referred to the Biblical texts of His day (the Old Testament) as perfect and permanent -- "Father, Your word is truth" and "the Scriptures cannot be broken."

Muhammad has a problem: We have reliable -- not "corrupted" -- copies of the original inspired and perfect Old and New Testament documents, including written records of what Christ actually said and did.

Since we know what Jesus said, you must listen to Him.

The trustworthiness of Scripture

We have copies of Old Testament texts dating to more than a century before Christ, including a complete scroll of Isaiah from around 125 B.C. These demonstrate that the Sacred Texts have been transmitted faithfully down through the centuries to us.

In fact, the body of manuscripts is so reliable that the Bible we possess today is nearly 99% pure. Remaining issues involve mainly spelling errors, word omissions (articles, conjunctions, etc.), and other copyists' mistakes. None of these copying errors affect doctrine.

What do the uncorrupted, reliable Biblical texts say about the Son of God and His crucifixion?

Contrary to your claim, there is no distinction between Christ and God in the New Testament making Jesus only human.

Since "God" in the New Testament refers usually to God the Father, the distinction being made in those cases is between persons of the Trinity, between the Son of God and His Father.

By the way, Christ refers to God as "my Father" dozens of times in the Gospels.

A true prophet, Isaiah, foresaw that the promised Messiah would be God Incarnate:

"For to us a child is born, to us a son is given; and the government shall be upon his shoulder, and his name shall be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace" (Isaiah 9:6).

Note that in this statement alone, the Child to be born is given the name of God the Father ("Everlasting Father"), God the Son ("Prince of Peace"), and God the Holy Spirit ("Wonderful Counselor").

And as Moses stated, "Hear O Israel . . . the LORD is one," so too the Messiah will be called "Mighty God."

Isn't that odd? The Triune God named in the Old Testament.

Both Isaiah and David foretold the Messiah's torturous scourging and crucifixion, to which there were many witnesses:

"He was despised and rejected by men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief; and as one from whom men hide their faces he was despised, and we esteemed him not. Surely he has borne our griefs and carried our sorrows; yet we esteemed him stricken, smitten by God, and afflicted.

"But he was wounded for our transgressions; he was crushed for our iniquities; upon him was the chastisement that brought us peace, and with his stripes we are healed. All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned--every one--to his own way; and the LORD has laid on him the iniquity of us all" (Isaiah 53:3-6).

"For dogs encompass me; a company of evildoers encircles me; they have pierced my hands and feet-- I can count all my bones-- they stare and gloat over me; they divide my garments among them, and for my clothing they cast lots" (Psalms 22:16-18).

More on the deity of Christ

The Apostles testified to Christ being God. Here is the opening of John's Gospel. Note the distinction between the Father and the Son: Two distinct persons, one nature:

"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things were made through him, and without him was not any thing made that was made. In him was life, and the life was the light of men . . . He was in the world, and the world was made through him, yet the world did not know him. He came to his own, and his own people did not receive him. But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God, who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.

"And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we have seen his glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father, full of grace and truth . . . from his fullness we have all received, grace upon grace. For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ. No one has ever seen God; the only God, who is at the Father's side, he has made him known" (John 1:1-18).

Jesus used the name by which the One, True God, YHWH (not Allah) revealed Himself to Moses:

"So the Jews said to him, 'You are not yet fifty years old, and have you seen Abraham?'

"Jesus said to them, 'Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM.' So they picked up stones to throw at him . . . " (John 8:57-59).

The religious leaders would not have tried to stone Him for blasphemy unless He were claiming to be YHWH.

Notice in the next passage both that Christ calls God "My Father" and that the religious authorities wanted to kill Him for "making Himself equal with God.":

But Jesus answered them, "My Father is working until now, and I am working." This was why the Jews were seeking all the more to kill him, because not only was he breaking the Sabbath, but he was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God" (John 5:17-18).

The Father says directly of His Son:

"And a voice came out of the cloud, saying, 'This is my Son, my Chosen One; listen to him'" (Luke 9:35)!

"And when Jesus was baptized, immediately he went up from the water, and behold, the heavens were opened to him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and coming to rest on him; and behold, a voice from heaven said, 'This is my beloved Son, with whom I am well pleased'" (Matthew 3:16-17).

One last proof of Christ's deity: In Revelation 22 we find GOD speaking:

"And he who was seated on the throne said, "Behold, I am making all things new." Also he said, "Write this down, for these words are trustworthy and true." And he said to me, "It is done! I am the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end. To the thirsty I will give from the spring of the water of life without payment" (Revelation 21:5-6).

And in the very next chapter, we read:

"Behold, I am coming soon, bringing my recompense with me, to repay everyone for what he has done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end" (Revelation 22:12-13).

Who is speaking in the second passage? Jesus Christ, the Son of God.

If Jesus was only a man as you claim, then how in the world would He have the same name as the omnipotent GOD?

Many other passages show Jesus Christ to be the Son of God.

Trust in Christ, Who forgives your sins freely, not Muhammad.

A God Who wails aloud for His children is not a god which creates them for Hell

God Incarnate sobs over Jerusalem, the very same souls Bob says that in His "sovereignty" He created for hell.

So, Calvin's god has gone from being a capricious monster to being a criminally-insane capricious monster.

By the way, the ESV heads the passage in question: "Lament over Jerusalem."

In response to Bob's comments (regarding Matthew 23) here:

if you check the actual context of the passage you'd find that there is no weeping involved

[. . .]

If you're basing the whole "jesus weeping" thing on the word longing; you've completely ignored the context. The pronouncement of woes is before this and after this passage

[. . .]

No weeping at all.

What makes you think that YHWH's pronouncing woes precludes His feeling sorrow over His children's unbelief and their resultant doom?

Unlike Calvin's god, Christ loves us all.

This is the same God Who prayed for those who crucified Him: "Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do" (Luke 23:34).

This is the same God Who calls out to all people: "Turn to me and be saved, all the ends of the earth! For I am God, and there is no other" (Isaiah 45:22).

This is the same God Who declares: "The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance" (2 Peter 3:9).

This is the same God Who promises:

". . . God . . . desires all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, who gave himself as a ransom for all . . ." (1 Timothy 2:3-6).

No, the God Who lamented:

"O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the city that kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to it! How often would I have gathered your children together as a hen gathers her brood under her wings, and you would not" (Matthew 23:37)!

(Did you read that? What is the hen's attitude toward her offspring? Does she delight in pronouncing woes against them? Is she indifferent to their destruction? And that's not my analogy, it is the LORD's.)

Is the same God Who weeps for Jerusalem in Luke 19:

And when he drew near and saw the city, he wept over it, saying, "Would that you, even you, had known on this day the things that make for peace! But now they are hidden from your eyes. For the days will come upon you, when your enemies will set up a barricade around you and surround you and hem you in on every side and tear you down to the ground, you and your children within you. And they will not leave one stone upon another in you, because you did not know the time of your visitation" (Luke 19:41-44).

The word translated here "wept" (klaio) is "wail aloud, sob, bewail," not silent tears or misty eyes.

If the Son of God wails aloud for the physical destruction of the people of Jerusalem -- and their rejection of Him, for they "did not know the time of [their] visitation" -- what makes you think He would be indifferent to (or pleased with!) their unbelief in Matthew 23?

But no. Your god is licking his chops at the chance to put some reprobates on The Machine in The Pit of Despair.

Bob concludes with:

As far as all of the other things you've stated; God creating people on whimsy, God capricously sending people to Hell..

Those are straw men and you know it.

You don't have to like Calvinism, but at least represent what the doctrines say accurately; that's only fair.

The fact is; God IS sovereign...yes, even in the matter of one's salvation and your anger at it doesn't change that.

If you want to be taken more seriously in the future; you'd be better off to lose the Ad Hominems and misreprestation of Calvinism.

"God IS sovereign" is code for "God creates people for Hell." The only problem is, that is not the God of the Bible. A God Who wails aloud for His children is not a god which creates them for Hell.

And it can't be ad hominem if the point of my argument is that Calvin's god is a monster, which makes him a blaspheming heretic.

Speaking of misrepresentation, as to the false claim that I've lied about Calvin, here is the heretic in his own words, from the Modern History Sourcebook: John Calvin: On Double Predestination:

"In conformity, therefore, to the clear doctrine of the Scripture, we assert, that by an eternal and immutable counsel, God has once for all determined, both whom he would admit to salvation, and whom he would condemn to destruction. We affirm that this counsel, as far as concerns the elect, is founded on his gratuitous mercy, totally irrespective of human merit; but that to those whom he devotes to condemnation, the gate of life is closed by a just and irreprehensible, but incomprehensible, judgment. In the elect, we consider calling as an evidence of election, and justification as another token of its manifestation, till they arrive in glory, which constitutes its completion. As God seals his elect by vocation and justification, so by excluding the reprobate from the knowledge of his name and the sanctification of his Spirit, he affords an indication of the judgement that awaits them."

Calvin taught (and so do all who teach and defend TULIP) that God predetermines who goes to Heaven and Hell (Unconditional Election,"U"), that Christ died for only some, not all, people (Limited Atonement, "L"), and that God's grace is irresistible (Irresistible Grace, "I") which, if true, means that God does not shower His grace on all.

According to your man's own words in the passage above, Calvin's god denies its spirit to the many it created for hell. It denies those it created for destruction knowledge of it.

How can the god which denies its spirit to the people it's created for perdition be the same God Who wails for doomed unbelievers, prays for the forgiveness of His executioners, desires that all should be saved, and dies for all people to reconcile them to His Father?

It can't.

Post scriptum:

So, how do you know whether or not you're going to Heaven?

The answer is, you can't know, because Calvin's god chose in its "divine sovereignty" to create some for heaven and some for hell.

So, which is it? Are you one of the elect, or are you one of those of whom at the end of your life others will say -- just like I've heard leading evangelicals say -- "He never was really a Christian."

I hope for your sake that your flip of the cosmic coin turned up the right face.

Or, you can trust in the Son of God Who died for the sins of the whole world.

That "whole world" would include you, which means that you know your sins are forgiven, you have been reconciled to the Father, Heaven is opened, and eternal life is yours.

Believe Christ, not Calvin.

The contrast between Christ and Allah, Heaven and Hell, stark and devastating

It is telling that Muslims never admit before non-Muslims what their god demands and their false prophet practiced (until it is too late, that is).

You'll notice in the comments from Mr. Fadly that he never addresses the sacralizing of depravity in Islam, he engages only in ad hominem attacks, false tu quoques and moral equivalences, and diversions from the fundamental issue, Islam's brutal and perverse totalitarian ideology.

Here's the latest in a series of posts pointing out what the typical Islamic apologist doesn't want you to know:

Mohamed wrote,

"you must 'love your enemies' . . . you love all terrorists , , , As for Islamic beliefs we Muslims don't have to love those who kill children and attack innocents"

No, you [Muslims] are those who "kill children and attack innocents."

"Allah only forbids you, with regard to those who fight you for (your) Faith . . . It is such as turn to them (in these circumstances), that do wrong." 60: 8, 9

There is a big difference between "loving" who fire off my brother, and "not loving" who fire off my brothers.

You said you were doing research, but not about Christ's teachings apparently, since you're grossly misrepresenting them. Does that bother you at all?

Jesus did not command, "Excuse immorality and reward the criminal." He made a distinction between "Two Kingdoms," the spiritual and civil realms (a distinction absent from Islam, since Muhammad used his "faith" as a tool to satiate his lusts).

The individual Christian is to love even his enemies. Christ forbids personal revenge. The state, on the other hand, is to punish evil and defend its citizens.

Jesus taught and practiced, "Love your enemies," even praying for those who were murdering Him. He died for the sins of all people, even those who hate Him.

Jesus taught that His Father causes the sun to shine on the just and unjust and the rain to fall on the just and unjust. He says that if we are only kind to those who are kind to us, we are no better than unbelievers. In this context, Jesus commands, "Be perfect, as your Father in Heaven is perfect."

Christ teaches His people to pray, "Forgive us our sins, as we forgive those who sin against us," and, "If you do not forgive others' sins, neither will yours be forgiven."

You don't understand that your sin makes you an enemy of Christ. He commanded, "love YHWH with all your heart, mind, and strength," "You believe in the Father; believe also in Me," and, "all must honor the Son as they honor the Father."

You break those commandments every day as a Muslim.

"The soul that sins is the one who will die." You justly deserve God's wrath because of your sin.

What hope do you have for eternal life? How can you think you will escape Hell?

What does Allah offer? The possibility that your good works might outweigh your sins? The only sure way for you to enter Paradise is to slaughter or be slaughtered for Allah (Qur'an 9:111).

Do you really think virgins wait there for you? Boys "like pearls"?

Loving one's enemies doesn't mean rewarding or excusing their evil. Nor are we to stand by in the face of evil. Self-defense and the defense of others are appropriate.

Christ also forbids "throwing one's pearls before swine, lest they trample them and turn again and rend you." We are not to give foolishly what is valuable to those who will not appreciate it.

Love means doing what is best for another person, and that is telling the truth, turning someone from evil. It is, ultimately, pointing to Christ and His forgiveness.

You don't understand love because your god is the inverse of it.

You defend revenge and retaliation because that is what Muhammad commanded and practiced.

It is ironic that you use your god as a point of reference in trying to -- what are you trying to do exactly, show Christ was wrong? -- since your god forbids "dealing kindly and justly with" non-Muslims when they "fight you for faith." Isn't that odd?

There is only one major world religion whose deity commands fighting others over religious belief. That would be Muhammad's, as his own texts demonstrate (to his shame).

You follow a god that calls killing unbelievers because they are unbelievers "just." A god that sanctions beating wives, valuing females at half the value of a male (if that), and raping nine-year-olds. A god that approves of lying if it aids the spread of shari'a. A god that demands slavery or death for all who refuse the "invitation" to Islam.

In effect, by choosing this topic, you've highlighted the fact that the God of the Bible, YHWH, loves all even though all sin, and proved this by becoming flesh and dying on a cross for us, while al-Ilah wants everyone who won't submit as a slave or dead.

You've highlighted the fact that Christ assures all of Heaven, but Allah gives Paradise to those who butcher unbelievers for him.

There's that stark contrast again, and it's devastating.

But the love of God in Christ for you and your co-religionists is greater.

Sincerity saves, civil discourse, and xenophobic Islamophobes

More from here:

Doorman-Priest,

I. Civil discourse

I assure you that I never intended to harm or offend you with my earlier comments.

I did intend to prick your pride (Luther calls it “sharp mercy,” I think), because you entered the discussion at Steve’s with “There is only one God . . . Allah, YHWH, God the Father, Waheguru . . . I doubt she gives a stuff.” Couple that with claiming that all “moral” people worship the same god and that sincerity saves, and I recognized someone putting a stumbling block before others.

You might notice my first reply to you there began with, “On the chance that your comment is offered in good faith . . . ,” because what you wrote was not something that would be welcomed by anyone who believes Christ’s Word is true. What you posted subsequently did not indicate a desire for dialogue either. All of that is more appropriate to a place like belief.net.

Would you admit my “Doorman-Priest (Saddam Hussein? Walt Disney? Diana Ross? What does it matter? There is only one Man, and she doesn’t care what we call it, does he?)” was funny?

II. All gods are the same god

You’ll have to forgive me if I thought you meant all gods were the same god, since you wrote: “There is only one God . . . that God is Allah, YHWH . . . Waheguru and so on.”

There are several problems with saying that all religions worship the same God, however imperfectly:

1) YHWH doesn’t say that. Can you show us where He does?

2) YHWH speaks of many false gods, describing them as “demons.” Is it rude of God to call others’ sincere, if flawed, efforts at knowing Him, “demons”?

3) Saying that, “all who do the best they can, God will accept,” is contrary to Scripture, and leads to people’s destruction, for salvation is in Christ alone.

4) If people can be saved by the sincerity of their effort, then Christ died for nothing.

Unbelievers need to hear (just as we believers do) that their sin is great and leads to Hell (Law), but God has forgiven their sins in Christ (Gospel).

(By the way, have you noticed your supporters arguing for NOT trusting the Word of Christ? Do you support that?)

III. Freedom of speech

As to free speech, its only limitation should be where truth ends (and even then, you have to be careful). Freedom of Speech is one of the first unalienable, God-given rights to be curtailed and then extinguished by tyrants (along with the Right to Bear Arms). If you don’t have the freedom to say something that offends someone, then you don’t have freedom of speech at all.

I agree that we should not “incite hatred.” That phrase, though, raises a red flag, for I hear it used most often by Muslims and their Useful Idiots to silence criticism of those aspects of Islam that promote the enslavement or slaughter of all non-Muslims, the abuse and degrading of women, the violation of children, and the denial of freedom of speech and conscience to all.

So, is it “hatred” to point out error that leads to Hell? Is it “hatred” to warn others that an ideology which has warred against non-Muslims for 1400 years is coming to town (or, in the case of Europe, is now mayor)? Is it “hatred” to expose the fact that Islam’s god and founder require or endorse genocide, murder, rape, slavery, pedophilia, theft, and deceit against non-Muslims, apostates, women, and little girls?

Wouldn’t it be “hatred” toward God and Man to remain silent in the face of all this?

IV. Christ is Allah?

You’ll have to forgive me for thinking that you said Christ is Allah. It might have something to do with your writing, “God is Allah, YHWH . . . .”

V. Interpreting Scripture

Being a Lutheran, you understand the Analogy of Scripture. We use Scripture to interpret Scripture as its authors (and Author) intended. In this, we use our God-given Reason and our knowledge of language, culture, history, etc.

It would be misinterpreting the Word of God to take literally a excerpt intended as symbolic. It would be wrong to understand poetry as history (though there may be historical content within it). It would be heresy to take a portion of the Old Covenant and apply it to those under the New.

(And since you are a teacher and minister, you must be familiar with my understanding of Revelation, for what’s in a name?)

I would make one more point about the Old Testament: Jesus said that all of it testifies of Him.

VI. Xenophobic Islamophobes

You write that I “generalise and give the impression that all Muslims are fundamentalists who act as one.” I disagree strongly.

I have quoted Allah. I have noted Mohammed’s words and deeds according to Islam’s own authoritative documents, those very texts on which Islam is founded.

The fact that citing Qur’an and Sunnah sounds to you like demonizing all Muslims says more about those texts and your reaction to them than it does about my words.

I would ask again, where have I erred? These documents are easily available to the Infidel with an ISP. And I wouldn’t rely on Muslim friends. Just like Christians, there is much variability among Muslims in terms of their knowledge, zeal, and veracity.

Because it is unfair to paint with a broad brush, I do not attack all Muslims; I do expose their prophet from Hell and his Allah.

I’m curious. You repeat many of the propaganda points jihadists and their apologists use to deceive non-Muslims (not intentionally, I believe; President Bush did this all the time). Have you never investigated these texts for yourself?

As to your friend, I will not accuse her of taqiyya (did you look that up yet?). It is notable that she uses several of the same “arguments” that jihad’s apologists do. I’d like to share with you what she didn’t say . . .

“Jihad” is Arabic for “struggle.” It is true that one use of jihad refers to the struggle against sin, unbelief, etc. What those Muslims Who Know (I’m not saying your friend is one of these) never tell non-Muslims is that this particular teaching is based on one hadith of questionable authority and that “jihad” is used usually to describe warfare against non-Muslims using any means necessary, including “qital” (combat) to establish the rule of Allah.

Are you aware that no major school of Islamic jurisprudence rejects warfare against non-Muslims?

As for “Christian fundamentalists,” what do they have to do with jihad? A Christian who thinks dancing is a sin is a far cry from a Muslim who carries out his Allah-given duty to separate your head from your body. Neither is a “Christian fundamentalist” who interprets literally even the symbolic parts of the Apocalypse going around blowing people up for Christ.

I notice also that you’re using (I don’t think intentionally) a common ad hominem attack used by Muslims to try to demonize those exposing their god and prophet: I must not know any Muslims.

This is a variant of the: “I’m not a racist because I have a [insert non-Caucasian ethnicity here] friend.” Who I know makes no difference to the truth of what I write, since I am not talking about people I don’t know, I’m talking about texts and history and current events that are available for study to all with the courage to examine them honestly.

And no, it isn’t pretty.

Again, I ask, where have I erred? Please show me from Qur’an, any of the ahadith collections considered most reliable by mainstream Islam, or Sirat Rasul Allah (I have a copy here in my bookcase; do you?).

A "good enough" gospel just isn't good enough

All gods are not the same god.

Christ is not Allah, for how can the One Who taught and practiced, "Love your enemies," be the same demon which commanded, "kill the unbelievers wherever you find them"?

God does not accept us on the basis of an imagined piety or reverence, but on the basis of the blood of Christ.

How can a faithful Christian contradict the Word and mislead those in need of salvation into thinking they're going to make it into Heaven because they're "reverent" and "pious"?

From here:

Doorman-Priest,

"You accuse me of multiculturalism. Thank you."

No, I speculated that the motivation for your “all gods are the same god” was “multiculturalist intellectual cowardice.”

If I am wrong, I apologize.

If I am right, will you admit it?

“According to my (albeit ENGLISH) English language dictionary”

In America, "multiculturalism" is often used to refer to the elevation of foreign cultures (in whole or in part) over traditional American culture whether or not they merit it.

Truth is sacrificed out of fear of offending others, and that fear is used by special interests for political advantage.

“the word you were so fruitlessly groping for in that context was PLURALISM as I suspect you felt I was arguing that in some way all religious roads lead equally to God.”

No, you were saying all gods are the same god. That is irrational on its face and contrary to Scripture.

When you say “Christ is Allah,” that is blasphemy.

“I am perfectly clear on the issue of repentance/confession and atonement following the crucifixion and resurrection of Jesus who is Christ and Messiah and God’s guarantee of salvation. I am very sorry if you have misunderstood my position.”

I can only judge by what you write.

When you say everyone worships the same god (“Christ is Allah”) what interpretation can one reasonably make but that you believe all gods are the same god?

“I think where your confusion has arisen is over the universality of that salvation – not as a key doctrine itself but as a current reality or as an unrealised potential.”

Salvation is not universal, atonement is. Christ has paid for the sins of the whole world, but many reject this gift through unbelief.

“I have been able to accept Christ’s saving substitutionary sacrifice.”

Then why do you contradict Him?

“My Sikh, Muslim, Jewish, Buddhist, Agnostic and I suspect some Atheist friends (I know no Hindus) have certainly not understood and probably not properly heard. The odds are also stacked against those of a non-Christian background for a variety of reasons: not the least language, culture, family attitudes and religious upbringing. As someone who is an out and proud Christian and who works closely with people from a number of faith backgrounds I know how unlikely it is that they will truly hear or understand the gospel, although I do not seek to set limits on the working of the Spirit.”

First, I commend you for helping others.

Second, I would point out something that deserves your attention: You say that you have non-Christian friends and work closely with people “from a number of faith backgrounds” who are highly “unlikely” to hear the Gospel.

You are an “out and proud Christian,” teacher, and minister. How then can you have any friends who will never hear the Gospel proclaimed?

It is your duty to speak the truth (Law and Gospel) so that they might come to faith, even if some (or all) of those friends are offended, even if your co-workers start calling you names, even if your devoted fans at your site suddenly find you “intolerant.”

Jesus said that if we love anyone more than Him, we are not worthy of Him.

“I am wondering Amillennialist, if your concept of God’s justice requires him to judge people by the same standards.”

My concept?

Here we approach the essential conflict: Instead of speaking the Word of God as He has revealed it to us, you offer instead your own opinions.

What does God say about that? In Deuteronomy 29:29 Moses writes, "The secret things belong to the LORD our God, but the things that are revealed belong to us and to our children forever, that we may do all the words of this law.” Where's the room for speculation?

In Revelation 22:18 the Apostle John warns: “if anyone adds to them [the words of this book], God will add to him the plagues described in this book, and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God will take away his share in the tree of life and in the holy city, which are described in this book.”

That should cause every man to be cautious in how he treats Divine Revelation, especially teachers, who will be judged more harshly (James 3:1).

“My understanding of scripture suggests that God does apply his standard consistently, but that he accepts a variety of pleas.”

Where does He say that?

Jesus said, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me” (John 14:6).

“1 Cor 15.22, 2 Cor 5.19, Col 1.20, 1Tim 2.6, 1Tim 4.10, Heb 2.9,1 Jn 2.2, Rom 11.32, Rom 3.23/24, Rom 5.18, Jn 1.9, Jn 1.29, Jn 12.32 and Jn 12.47 . . . the weight of which suggests that there is a universal salvation.”

No. In their entirety the declare the mercy that God has had on all people. Christ paid for the sins of the whole world.

(Great passages, by the way.)

That many through unbelief reject this gift is a fact stated by Christ Himself. In Matthew 23:37 He laments, “How often would I have gathered your children together as a hen gathers her brood under her wings, and you would not!” In Chapter 22:14 He states, “many are called, but few are chosen."

“scripture is not clear cut here and . . . It won’t change the fact that scripture seems to suggest something which some Conservative Evangelicals are not comfortable with.”

Scripture is clear cut: Christ has reconciled the whole world to His Father, but through unbelief many reject that gift. In those cases, the only payment left for sin is the one a person must make himself, and that isn't pretty.

“Now, remember that I am not arguing that all spiritual roads lead to salvation. Some will clearly NOT be saved. However, as I have said before it is not for me to put limits on God’s grace.”

None of us should. But it is for you to say what He says, no more, no less.

“There ARE those who earnestly search for God who will never hear or fully understand the gospel through no fault of their own.”

What does Christ say? “Whoever believes in him [Christ] is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God” (John 3:18). In Romans 10: “faith comes from hearing, and hearing through the word of Christ. But I ask, have they not heard? Indeed they have, for 'Their voice has gone out to all the earth, and their words to the ends of the world.'"

“Regardless of the mad and evil things some others may do in the name of the same religion – and they are probably not saved – we must not forget the many good, honest, decent, pious folk who seek to live with compassion and integrity and at peace with their neighbours. There are, after all, universal moral laws.”

Which we all violate.

We all do “mad and evil things.” No one is “good, honest, decent, or pious” in the sight of God, for He declares:

“None is righteous, no, not one; no one understands; no one seeks for God. All have turned aside; together they have become worthless; no one does good, not even one." "Their throat is an open grave; they use their tongues to deceive." "The venom of asps is under their lips." "Their mouth is full of curses and bitterness." "Their feet are swift to shed blood; in their paths are ruin and misery, and the way of peace they have not known.", "There is no fear of God before their eyes" (Romans 3:10-18).

You're promoting a “good enough” gospel, but that's not good enough. You remember what the Apostle Paul said about those who preach a false message of salvation (Galatians 1:8), right?

“if I were a Muslim, I would not find my way to the gospel via your particular witness. Your comments on Islam offended me and I am not a Muslim: they showed a crass prejudice and a simplistic desire to demonise others while failing to see the faults in front of our faces.”

Speaking of “simplistic prejudice”!

Your words here are an example of suicidal ignorance in service to multiculturalism, for what did I write that was untrue?

Have you studied Qur'an? Ahadith? Sira?

What did I say here about your Muslim friends? Or all Muslims?

According to Islam's own “sacred” texts, Allah and his apostle require the enslavement or slaughter of all who refuse to convert:

"the Messenger of Allah . . . would say: 'Fight in the name of Allah and in the way of Allah. Fight against those who disbelieve in Allah. Make a holy war. . . . When you meet your enemies who are polytheists, invite them to three courses of action. . . . Invite them to (accept) Islam; if they respond to you, accept it from them and desist from fighting against them. . . . If they refuse to accept Islam, demand from them the Jizya. If they agree to pay, accept it from them and hold off your hands. If they refuse to pay the tax, seek Allah's help and fight them . . .'" (Muslim Book 19, Number 4294).

"fight and slay the Pagans wherever ye find them, and seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war) . . . " (Qur’an 9:5).

"Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued" (Qur'an 9:29).

"Allah's Apostle said: 'I have been ordered (by Allah) to fight against the people until they testify that none has the right to be worshipped but Allah and that Muhammad is Allah's Apostle . . . '" (Bukhari Volume 1, Book 2, Number 24).

That Muslims slaughter non-Muslims to shouts of “allahu akbar” is a common occurrence. Are you really unaware of Indonesian Muslims beheading Christian schoolgirls on their way to school? These are not random psychotic or sociopathic episodes; these acts are committed in obedience to Allah and in accord with Mohammed's example.

As for his raping little Aisha, that fact is amply attested to by numerous ahadith. Here's one:

“My mother came to me while I was being swung on a swing between two branches and got me down. My nurse took over and wiped my face with some water and started leading me. When I was at the door she stopped so I could catch my breath. I was brought in while Muhammad was sitting on a bed in our house. My mother made me sit on his lap. The other men and women got up and left. The Prophet consummated his marriage with me in my house when I was nine years old” (Tabari 9:131).

The reason Mohammed's example is such a problem for non-Muslims, apostates, women, and little girls is because Allah says of him: "Ye have indeed in the Messenger of Allah a beautiful pattern (of conduct) for anyone whose hope is in Allah and the Final Day, and who engages much in the Praise of Allah" (Qur'an 33:21).

What does that imply for the faithful Muslim?

Instead of being offended at my telling the truth, why are you not offended at Islam's “divinely”-sanctioned barbarism and depravity?

“My Muslim friends say “Not in my name” to the lunatic fringe”

There may be moderate Muslims, but Islam itself is not moderate. If you'd like to know if your friends are truly not “lunatic,” share with them the passages I've posted here. A decent person can only be horrified at such filth.

Based on my experience, odds are their heads will explode, or you'll get a good dose of taqiyya (look it up).

“just as I do to the historic Crusaders”

Every atrocity committed by Crusaders should be condemned. At the same time, it should be remembered that the original call was made in response to desperate pleas for help from eastern Christians enduring centuries of jihad.

“quisling clergy in Nazi occupied Europe”

And every act of un-Christian cowardice should be condemned.

You might also want to recall that many Christians – including Lutherans – risked and gave their lives to save their fellow human beings.

And it wasn't “Hitler's pope,” it was, “Hitler's mufti.”

“the IRA and on to the Topeka Baptists, all who have done untold evil in the name of Christ. There is no monopoly on evil.”

That is true.

Taken individually, the crimes commanded by Allah and committed by Mohammed – and therefore mandatory for faithful Muslims – are not unusual. What makes Mohammed's “religion” especially vile is that he took all of the worst of Man's impulses, made them “divine,” indulged them, and required others to do the same.

“In my personal experience unless someone has made it clear to me by word or deed, that he is my enemy, he remains my friend.”

That is commendable.

“If someone earnestly seeks God in the only way they know how, and have no chance of hearing with understanding the saving works of Christ, Does God condemn them?”

What does God say?

The soul that sins is the one who will die (Ezekiel 18).
No one seeks God (Romans 3).
Christ is the only way to the Father (John 14).
We are saved through faith alone (Ephesians 2).
Faith comes by hearing the Word of Christ (Romans 10).
Whoever does not believe in Christ is condemned already (John 3).

“If you believe he does, I must ask you: Is that the God of Christianity or the God of Right Wing Republican Evangelicalism, given that the two may not be the same?”

What did Jesus say? “Whoever believes in [Christ] is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God” (John 3:18).

You've implied that I'm a “Conservative Evangelical” and a “Republican.” Neither are true in the sense that you intend.

Forgive me if I'm wrong, but here I sense again the antagonism toward Christianity that led me in my first reply to you at Steve's to say, “On the chance that your comment is offered in good faith . . . .”

“Unless someone has shown in word or deed that he is God’s enemy is not God right to ascribe righteousness to him as a friend as he did to Abraham?”

But we are by nature God's enemies (Romans 5:10).

And as for Abraham, what does God say? “Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness" (Romans 4:3).

“Of course Christ is the benchmark and standard of our salvation”

That sounds like something we do, in which case it is again a false gospel.

Christ is neither a “benchmark” nor “standard,” He is Our Salvation.

“but the Biblical passages above reveal to me that while God indeed judges us on our discipleship of Christ it is possible to be an unknowing or anonymous disciple.”

God judges us either on the basis of Christ's payment for sin, in which case we are declared “just,” or He judges us on the basis of our own sin, in which case we are doomed.

Your option is contrary to Scripture.

“I leave the last word to the theologian and writer C.S. Lewis and his Narnia stories:”

I like and admire C.S. Lewis.

He is not Christ.

“Lewis is suggesting that God’s grace is, indeed, extended beyond the limits we might expect. But that is down to God’s grace and not our judgement. God may well choose to act towards others in ways which surprise us and it is not for us to question God’s grace. We do not know the mind of God.”

Yes. That is another reason you should say only what God has said, and not contradict His clear word.

Making things up to suit your sensibilities is not faith.

“those who we reject because they don’t fit into our self imposed pigeonholes of who God accepts.”

Whom have I rejected? Pointing out error is not limiting God; He calls us to that. Both Law and Gospel must be preached.

What was Christ's message? “Repent, for the Kingdom of God is at hand.”

“we approach God by the name we have been taught and if that isn't the "correct" or given name, God doesn't care providing we approach in reverence and penitence.”

But God says, “Now the Spirit expressly says that in later times some will depart from the faith by devoting themselves to deceitful spirits and teachings of demons” (1 Timothy 4:1), and:

“what pagans sacrifice they offer to demons and not to God. I do not want you to be participants with demons. You cannot drink the cup of the Lord and the cup of demons. You cannot partake of the table of the Lord and the table of demons. Shall we provoke the Lord to jealousy? Are we stronger than he” (1 Corinthians 10:20-22)?

A last encouragement to say only and all of what God has said:

Thus says the LORD of hosts: "Do not listen to the words of the prophets who prophesy to you, filling you with vain hopes. They speak visions of their own minds, not from the mouth of the LORD. They say continually to those who despise the word of the LORD, 'It shall be well with you'; and to everyone who stubbornly follows his own heart, they say, 'No disaster shall come upon you.'" For who among them has stood in the council of the LORD to see and to hear his word, or who has paid attention to his word and listened? Behold, the storm of the LORD! Wrath has gone forth, a whirling tempest; it will burst upon the head of the wicked” (Jeremiah 23:16-19).

Peace be with you.

What's in a name? When looking for clarity about God, everything

My first comment here in response to the person below was offered with the thought that perhaps he was well-intentioned but confused. From his response, it seemed necessary to demonstrate to him his error a little more emphatically.

His basic argument consists of three parts: 1) Since every religion calls its deity "god," then all gods must be the same being; 2) Since so many contradictory religious opinions exist, it must be that no one really knows who God is; and 3) Since so many contradictory religious opinions exist, every religious opinion is as good as every other (except of course, the one that says they aren't).

The essential answer comes in my last comment:

“Only one of those is his given name but he answers to them all.”

You’re confusing multiple names for one person to mean that one name for many persons makes them all the same person.

My first reply:

Doorman-Priest,

On the chance that your comment is offered in good faith . . .

If your wife were to indulge her marital urge with Bob or Kevin or Derek, would that be a problem? Would her defense of, “They’re all men” satisfy you?

You are confusing the use of the common noun “god” for all deities being the same one.

Christ is not Vishnu is not Allah is not Abaangui.

And later . . .

Doorman-Priest (Saddam Hussein? Walt Disney? Diana Ross? What does it matter? There is only one Man, and she doesn’t care what we call it, does he?),

That’s quite a few errors for so brief a post. I’ll address each one:

“There is only one God”

According to you, but as you admit, you don’t really know, so why should we listen, right?

YHWH says there are many gods. And none of them shall you have before Him.

Only one god is true, and He has revealed Himself to us. His name is I AM That I AM.

His Son, Jesus, claimed that name for Himself also.

“therefore whatever name we call him/her”

As I just noted, He told us His name. At least have the decency to respect what Someone wants to call Himself.

“whatever we perceive that God to be”

Here, as later, you imply that everyone’s opinions of god(s) are equally true. Even if our knowledge of God came only from Nature and Conscience, that would be false.

Since YHWH has revealed Himself to Humanity as Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, you’ve gone past natural, human ignorance and self-deception and into outright blasphemy.

You call YHWH a liar.

So, you claim that Christ ordains genocidal prophets marry their best friend’s daughters when they’re six-years-old and begin raping them when they’re nine.

You’re a liar.

“and however inadequate that revelation”

YHWH’s revelation is sufficient. The only inadequacy is your willingness or ability to tell the truth about it.

“(or perhaps more to the point in this context however inadequate we believe that revelation to others to be), it can only be the same God.”

Equating a god commanding the slaughter of all who refuse to submit to its rule with the Christ Who taught, “Love your neighbor as yourself,” is not “inadequate revelation,” it is [a] lie straight from the pit of Hell.

“Why do we think God cares what we call him”

Something along the lines of, “You shall not take the name of [the LORD your God] YHWH in vain,” perhaps?

“when people are trying to have communion with him”

So, monsters ripping Christian schoolgirls’ heads from their bodies to shouts of “allahu akbar!” is “communion” with the one, true god?

You’re sick.

“and are approaching in reverence and faith?”

So, was Mohammed approaching the one, true god in “reverence and faith” when he began raping little nine-year-old Aisha? He said he was: “If this is from Allah, then it must happen.”

“We may not believe “others” have got it quite right”

What does Christ say?

“it’s a good job God isn’t bound by our prejudices and shortsightedness”

Isn’t denying the clear word of Christ, isn’t denying the truth, “prejudiced and shortsighted”?

“and can apply his grace wherever he chooses. I am not going to put limits on the grace of God.”

Your lies limit the grace of God by denying it to billions.

True humility would say what Christ says. It would definitely *not* blaspheme YHWH by equating Him with deities from Hell.

True humility, true religion, would say what Christ says, not multiculturalist, intellectual cowardice.

“You have made God in your own image when his enemies are exactly the same as yours.”

The faithful Christian makes Christ’s enemies — the devil, all his works, and all his ways — his own. The devil was a liar and a murderer from the beginning. And sons of hell bar Heaven to those who want to enter it.

Romans 9 shows God's compassion and mercy, not His capriciousness and malice

In response to courteous comments here.

. . . God being malicious is something that you've drawn out of a Calvinist view, not Calvinists.

I don't think I've written that Calvinism says God is malicious and capricious.

Several of Calvinism's doctrines contradict the Word of Christ in ways that make its god malicious and capricious.

Attributing such characteristics and attitudes to YHWH blasphemes Him.

God works on a scale of just to merciful, unjust or malice don't enter his character at all.

YHWH is fully both at the same time. In Christ's body on the cross, He punished all men's sins and had mercy on all.

Calvinism denies that mercy to many.

I don't think the parable of the sower has anything to do with predestination.

The Parable of the Sower is relevant because it doesn't show God creating bad soil or never sending the Word to some (both Calvinist heresies).

It shows that the responsibility for unbelief is ours.

. . . Romans 9 especially verses 14-24 . . . clouds the issue of God's will in choosing and man's role in accepting. As well as whether people can actually be destined for Hell. I'm still considering my thoughts on this passage, but when considering how God chooses I think it's essential to include this passage.

God says:

"You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit and that your fruit should abide" (John 15:16),

". . . God has consigned all to disobedience, that he may have mercy on all" (Romans 11:32).

"Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God" (John 3:18).

"he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life" (John 3:16).

"by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast (Ephesians 2: 8 and 9).

"For we hold that one is justified by faith apart from works of the law" (Romans 3:28).

"He [Christ] is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world" (1 John 2:2).

"in Christ God was reconciling the world to himself, not counting their trespasses against them . . ." (2 Corinthians 5:19).

"Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you kill the prophets and stone to death those sent to you! How often I wanted to gather your children together the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings! But you were not willing" (Matthew 23:37)!

What does Romans 9 say? Paul shows that despite Israel's rejection, God's promises are sure and are received by faith.

Regarding Jacob and Esau, Paul writes, "though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad--in order that God's purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of his call . . ." (Romans 9:11).

Paul's point here is not that God hates (or rejects) people just because He chooses to do so (Calvinism's Double Predestination), it is that God's blessings depend on His mercy and are received by faith, not by works.

Being the older and favored son, Esau was to receive his father Isaac's blessing. Isaac asks Esau to hunt and prepare a "delicious meal," after which he would bless him. While Esau is out obeying his father, Jacob's mom, having overheard their plans, conspires with Jacob to deceive Isaac into obtaining the blessing.

So, the one who received the promise, Jacob, did not deserve it. Like Jacob, we receive the Promise not because we deserve it (we deserve condemnation!), but because of His mercy.

Romans 9 also mentions Pharaoh. Is the fact that God says of him, "I raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth" (Romans 9:17) evidence of His creating people for destruction? Is Paul's statement that God hardens whom He hardens proof of this?

Paul does not state that the hardening God did was His "sovereign choice" (that subtitle in the ESV and NIV is human commentary, not Divine revelation) to condemn someone; rather, he declares that its purpose was to show His power to the entire world.

Does God's patience with "objects of wrath prepared for destruction" (Romans 9:22) mean that He created people for Hell? No, since we believers are by nature, "objects of wrath" (Ephesians 2:3).

And God is patient with those "objects of wrath" in order that they too might repent. Paul writes, "do you presume on the riches of his kindness and forbearance and patience, not knowing that God's kindness is meant to lead you to repentance?" (Romans 2:4).

Calvinism denies God's kindness, forbearance, and patience to many.

Most importantly, Paul shows us that the reason Israel is rejected is not because of "God's sovereign choice," because of its unbelief, through which they reject Christ:

. . . Gentiles who did not pursue righteousness have attained it, that is, a righteousness that is by faith; but that Israel who pursued a law that would lead to righteousness did not succeed in reaching that law. Why? Because they did not pursue it by faith, but as if it were based on works" (Romans 9:30-32).