JayHub continued, speaking of Israel . . .
". . . they won it by right of conquest in 1948, kicking out hundreds of thousands of other long term residents in the process."A war ("wars," actually) Israel did not begin.
And as for "kicking out," much of that displacement was the result of the Palestinians' co-religionists encouraging them with promises of swift victory and easy spoils to step aside.
"I think the Palestinians have been treated very badly any way you look at it and don't agree with the argument that they're just getting what they deserve because they're poor and ignorant, or that Israel economic success and history means we should not question its past or the bodies buried there."I would support neither of those positions.
However, it appears the only "crime" of which you can accuse Israel is its being reconstituted in the first place.
The reason it is an "explosive" situation is because one side -- Islam -- can never, under any circumstances tolerate land that was once under the rule of Allah belonging again to Infidels.
That is why, more than any other supposed justification you can conjure up, the Muslim world hates Israel. Just ask Hamas:
"Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it."
"Israel, by virtue of its being Jewish and of having a Jewish population, defies Islam and the Muslims."
"The Islamic Resistance Movement believes that the land of Palestine is an Islamic Waqf consecrated for future Moslem generations until Judgement Day. It, or any part of it, should not be squandered: it, or any part of it, should not be given up."
"There is no solution for the Palestinian question except through Jihad. Initiatives, proposals and international conferences are all a waste of time and vain endeavors."
"After Palestine, the Zionists aspire to expand from the Nile to the Euphrates. When they will have digested the region they overtook, they will aspire to further expansion, and so on. Their plan is embodied in the "Protocols of the Elders of Zion", and their present conduct is the best proof of what we are saying."
"Allah is its [Hamas'] goal, the Prophet its model, the Qur’an its Constitution, Jihad its path and death for the case of Allah its most sublime belief."
For JayHub . . . From here:
"When Mark Twain visited the Holy Land in the 19th century, he was greatly disappointed. He didn't see any people. He referred to it as a vast wasteland. The land we now know as Israel was practically deserted.
"By the beginning of the 20th century, that began to change. Jews from all over the world began to return to their ancestral homeland – the Promised Land . . . .
"That's not to say there wasn't always a strong Jewish presence in the land – particularly in and around Jerusalem. In 1854, according to a report in the New York Tribune, Jews constituted two-thirds of the population of that holy city. The source for that statistic? A journalist on assignment in the Middle East that year for the Tribune. His name was Karl Marx. Yes, that Karl Marx.
"A travel guide to Palestine and Syria, published in 1906 by Karl Baedeker, illustrates the fact that, even when the Islamic Ottoman Empire ruled the region, the Muslim population in Jerusalem was minimal. The book estimates the total population of the city at 60,000, of whom 7,000 were Muslims, 13,000 were Christians and 40,000 were Jews.
"'The number of Jews has greatly risen in the last few decades, in spite of the fact that they are forbidden to immigrate or to possess landed property,' the book states.
"Even though the Jews were persecuted, still they came to Jerusalem and represented the overwhelming majority of the population as early as 1906. And even though Muslims today claim Jerusalem as the third holiest site in Islam, when the city was under Islamic rule, they had little interest in it.
"As the Jews came, drained the swamps and made the deserts bloom, something interesting began to happen. Arabs followed. I don't blame them. They had good reason to come. They came for jobs. They came for prosperity. They came for freedom. And they came in large numbers.
"Winston Churchill observed in 1939: 'So far from being persecuted, the Arabs have crowded into the country and multiplied till their population has increased more than even all world Jewry could lift up the Jewish population.'
"Then came 1948 and the great partition. The United Nations proposed the creation of two states in the region – one Jewish, one Arab. The Jews accepted it gratefully. The Arabs rejected it with a vengeance and declared war.
"Arab leaders urged Arabs to leave the area so they would not be caught in the crossfire. They could return to their homes, they were told, after Israel was crushed and the Jews destroyed. It didn't work out that way. By most counts, several hundred thousand Arabs were displaced by this war – not by Israeli aggression, not by some Jewish real-estate grab, not by Israeli expansionism.
"In fact, there are many historical records showing the Jews urged the Arabs to stay and live with them in peace. But, tragically, they chose to leave.
"Fifty-four years later, the sons and daughters and grandsons and granddaughters of those refugees are all-too-often still living in refugee camps – not because of Israeli intransigence, but because they are misused as a political tool of the Arab powers.
"Those poor unfortunates could be settled in a week by the rich Arab oil states that control 99.9 percent of the Middle East landmass, but they are kept as virtual prisoners, filled with misplaced hatred for Jews and armed as suicide martyrs by the Arab power brokers.
"This is the modern real history of the Arab-Israeli conflict. At no time did the Jews uproot Arab families from their homes. When there were title deeds to be purchased, they bought them at inflated prices. When there were not, they worked the land so they could have a place to live without the persecution they faced throughout the world.
"It's a great big lie that the Israelis displaced anyone . . . ."
. . . as demonstrated by the Hamas charter (and to JayHub's chagrin), the conflict has never been about Justice, or Self-Determination. It has always been about Mohammed's hatred of Jews:
Bukhari Volume 4, Book 52, Number 176:
Allah's Apostle said, "You (i.e. Muslims) will fight with the Jews till some of them will hide behind stones. The stones will (betray them) saying, 'O 'Abdullah (i.e. slave of Allah)! There is a Jew hiding behind me; so kill him.'"
JayHub serves himself poorly with . . .
". . . arguments over Israel always start with arguments over facts . . ."Where else should an argument begin (or end)? Or do you prefer emotional and irrational bald-faced lies instead?
". . . and his "facts" are one sided."If they are "one-sided" (and therefore, misleading), present evidence of that.
If you do not, then all you're making are unsubstantiated and -- in light of the facts noted so far -- false assertions.
"If I wanted to spend more time on this we could go back and forth on the facts for a very long time."Sure, why bother with facts?
"I also fear his claims are underlain by a belief that God has given the Jews the Land of Israel . . . ,"In making this ad hominem attack, you are ascribing to me something I've never claimed.
Whatever my personal beliefs on the subject may be, they have NOTHING to do whatsoever with the factual statements I've shared.
Why even speculate? Why not just address the questions of fact?
". . . which I think is ridiculous to start with."It is ridiculous to maintain a position based on emotion and without any corroborating evidence.
It is even more ridiculous to hold a belief despite solid, contradictory facts.
Worst of all is running from an argument without presenting any proof for one's position while mocking and lying about those who do.
"If you believe that, why argue about the history of the settlement of Israel at all - since God's said it, who's to dispute it, right?"Nice attempt at changing the subject. Straw men burn easy.
Obviously, that is a different question.
"I don't think we'll agree either, Heather, since you seem to see all Muslims as Evil Apes out to kill us all and cannot separate Palestinians claims from Islamofascists jihads."Another lie, JayHub?
Where did Heather call Muslims "Evil Apes"? She was referring to Islamic beliefs about Jews. Did you misread, or did you intentionally misrepresent what she wrote?
You know what Hamas says about its goals. There are many other, not too dissimilar "Palestinian" terrorist organizations.
If the "Palestinians" accept, support, and elect such people, what meaningful difference is there between "Palestinian claims" and "Islamofascists jihads"?
In the case of Hamas, its charter proves there is none.
Rather than criticize Heather, perhaps you should try to correct the "Palestinians" and their terrorist public servants. Of course, misrepresenting what Heather or I write will not result in your beheading or a large crater appearing where your car used to be.
I hope that you will reconsider your (false) ad hominem attacks, address the facts [I've shared, and present the evidence] that you believe I've neglected.
If not, I would like to leave with the following, one place from where Muslim anti-Semitism comes. Yes, it comes from Allah and his apostle, here speaking of Jews:
"And well ye knew those amongst you who transgressed in the matter of the Sabbath: We said to them: "Be ye apes, despised and rejected" (Qur'an 2:65).
"Shall I point out to you something much worse than this, (as judged) by the treatment it received from Allah? those who incurred the curse of Allah and His wrath, those of whom some He transformed into apes and swine, those who worshipped evil;- these are (many times) worse in rank, and far more astray from the even path" (Qur'an 5:60)!
"Allah's Apostle said, "The Hour will not be established until you fight with the Jews, and the stone behind which a Jew will be hiding will say. "O Muslim! There is a Jew hiding behind me, so kill him" (Bukhari Volume 4, Book 52, Number 177).