Saturday, January 21, 2006

When one is unwilling to admit basic facts, what is there left to say?

Rather than show I've represented a verse like "...kill the unbelievers wherever you find them" (Qur'an 9:5) in a way inconsistent with its context (Sura 9) and its application throughout history, a reader has used other unrelated Qur'anic passages out-of-their-contexts to argue that I've been dishonest.

Rather than demonstrate from Islam's "sacred" texts that I've mischaracterized Hadith and Sira revealing the intolerant, violent, and depraved words and actions of the (false) prophet, a reader has instead accused Christianity of wrongdoing (which, even when true, are demonstrably not a result of the Judeo-Christian Scriptures, while the crimes against humanity committed in the name of Allah are consistent with his revelations).

Showing the "true Islam" more clearly, here is the latest in my correspondence with a guest from Egypt.
...for any American who loves his country and think that it's the MERCIFUL and PERFECT STATE...Forget it!
I doubt any American would consider the U.S. "perfect." However, any honest observer of human nature and history would have to admit that the ideals on which the nation was founded and to which it aspires are indeed quite noble, and to the degree that any human institution could be considered such, "perfect."

The American creed acknowledges that the one true God (the God of the Bible) has given to all people certain rights which are unalienable--they cannot be given away, sold, stolen, or transferred to another; they come not from men, nor from government, but from the Creator Himself.

That is certainly a step above any other ideology or philosophy, especially one which requires "infidels" be fought against, subdued and humiliated, and killed in the name of its god.
My discussion with you is to talk about TRUE Islam,so I don't want to talk about Egypt...
I mentioned Egypt as an example of the "true Islam." In this country (which you lament does not yet practice fully Shariah), Christians are systematically discriminated against and oppressed, a fact which at first you completely denied.

And what is the "true Islam"? How can one know it? I have cited Allah and his apostle's clear words and deeds, yet you contradict them.

Whom should we believe?
Then you mentioned Saudi Arabia and Iran in fact I don't know non-muslims position in them but if there were any unfair actions are done towards them it will prove that these states don't practice Islam in the right way…
How can this be when Allah commands his people to subdue and humiliate the unbelievers under Dhimma?
...I'm talking about-is what my merciful Prophet was doing with non-muslims...
"Mercy." You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.
    -Is it merciful to make war against non-Muslims simply for the fact that they are not Muslim?

    -Is it merciful to slaughter the men and to rape and enslave the rest?

    -Is it merciful to kill a man and then rape his daughter the same day?

    -Is it merciful to crucify and dismember prisoners of war?

    -Is it merciful to assassinate critics?

    -Is it merciful to rape a nine-year-old girl and call it "marriage"?

    -Is it merciful to oppress and humiliate an infidel people just because they refuse conversion and death?

    -Is it merciful to murder anyone who leaves his Islamic faith?
This is what your "merciful" prophet commanded and practiced.
1.You must take translated texts from trusted sources taking in consideration that the meaning may lost in translation operation.
The translations I use are the traditionally-accepted English translations available on dozens of Islamic sites and in numerous Islamic hardcover publications.
2.You must take every text concerned to the thing you want to judge and know event it was said in and know is it a main rule or an exception?!!(ex.all verses you mentioned and hadith invite to mercy with non-muslims and in the other side verses which order to fight some of them and try to understand why it order to be merciful with them as a main rule and why it order to fight them in the other verse as an exception)and if you can't do that ask trusted Islamic sources.
Again, my sources are Islam's own. And if you were as familiar with them as you say I should be, you would know that many of the earlier, more peaceful and cooperative "revelations" were later abrogated by Allah's final universal commands requiring offensive warfare against non-Muslims to make the world Islam.

Besides that, if you want to defend Islam, I wouldn't appeal to Hadith or Sira to explain the contexts behind Qur'anic texts; alone the Qur'an would probably be taken by most non-Muslims as the incoherent ravings of a madman--with the additional context and biography provided by them, the monstrous nature of Mohammed and his god becomes overwhelmingly and irrefutably clear.
4.You must look at the crime done by who worth punishment before you look to the punishement;as Islam is religion of mercy so it won't punish a person till his crime was bad and dangerous.
Unfortunately for Infidels and Apostates, rejection of Allah alone is a "crime."
6.You must read QUR'AN as a whole and don't take small parts and build your opinion on them forgetting the rest of them..
I agree. The Qur'anic texts must be understood in their historical contexts. When one does this, one understands the earlier passages requiring peace and cooperation with non-Muslims have been abrogated by Allah's final commands requiring war against the "unbelieving" world.

One also learns of the violence and depravity characterizing the (false) prophet (unless you call wanton murder, stealing, enslavement, mutilation, and rape "mercy").
(These rules are put by me not taken from texts so if there was any wrong it will be from me but please take them also as a whole)
They are good and fair rules. I agree completely.

Unfortunately, the subject matter to which they must be applied are beyond hope.
Yes I'm able to provide you with a lot of evidences like films that shows Americans with the most modern tools and in the same time Arab are retardates and aren't clean and lust(sorry)is the first thing in their life like:(The Mummy:Americans are in cars and plans,Arab riding horses),...
And this explains away Allah's commands and Mohammed's example in what way(s)?

Or are you implying that I am unfairly biased against Islam because I have been brainwashed by Western media into having a false and unflattering image of Arabs?

Or are you trying to imply I am racist or an ethnocentrist (since you know neither my race nor ethnicity, that would be risky)?

Perhaps you are just trying a technique traditionally used by Muslim apologists: rather than admit the (unpleasant) truth to non-Muslims about Allah's designs for them, try to change the subject and make them feel guilty by pointing out wrongs committed by their own.

I would prefer to stay on-topic.
"...kill the unbelievers wherever you find them" (Qur'an 9:5).

Who's making war against whom?
it's because we are the source of their civilization(and go to history)
That's strange. Islam has only existed fourteen centuries. The foundation of Western Civilization, the Bible, has existed for two thousand years. YHWH's first words to His chosen people were given thirty-four centuries ago. You do the math.

And if you are appealing to Mesopotamia and the "Cradle of Civilization" don't, because if anything, Islam parasitically sucks the life out of the civilizations it conquers, destroying the symbols of its pre-Islamic history and culture.
" cannot, since they are from Allah."absolutely they are from ALLAH but the problem is your misunderstanding.Any way,good that you started doing a positive thing not just directing swears and accusation:
I've not "directed swears and accusations." I've clearly, fairly, and accurately cited Qur'an, Hadith, and Sira.

You have not demonstrated from their literary or historical contexts that I've misrepresented the commands. You have only obfuscated. Christians who said that there is three or Jesus is the god however Jesus himself said when he was a baby that he is a thrall to ALLAH...
No, Jesus never said He was a slave to Allah (that would be blasphemy on His part, and Christ had no sin).

Jesus said He was the Son of YHWH, the God of Israel. He said He was "I AM," claiming for His own the personal name by which the Omnipotent, Omniscient Creator revealed Himself to His chosen people.
,BUT it don't mean to fight non-muslims who aren't dangerous or harming Islamic state it's for non-muslims who are themselves fighting Islamic state or Islam and forbid Islam to reach all the world and represent danger on Islam,...
Since "forbidding Islam to reach all the world" represents a "danger on Islam," it is "harming Islamic state" right? There is no "innocent" free non-Muslim, right? Every infidel who refuses to submit to Islam represents a threat to it, right?

Even so, the Qur'anic passages allowing and then requiring self-defensive warfare do not negate the later universal commands for offensive warfare against "unbelievers."
...the thing that I can say to you is leaving Islam in Islamic state is the same as crime of refusing Law in a country in all canons;and it's punishment is killing in all of them.
So you agree with the "mercy" of Mohammed: kill the apostate? How enlightened of you! Now you really are revealing the "true Islam."

Jesus never ordered the killing of those who leave the faith. I know of no other major world religion that requires it either. mother Aisha-may ALLAH bless her-was engaged before that to another man,and scientifically a girl ripen sexually(sorry)in the hot areas before a girl in clod areas.You must take in consideration differences of time and social habits.
Justifying pedophilia. More of the "true Islam"!
and there is an important verse that reveal Justice of Islam it's.."8.Allah forbids you not, with regard to those WHO FIGHT YOU not for (your) Faith nor drive you out of your homes, from dealing KNINDLY and JUSTLY with them: for Allah loveth those who are just. 9. Allah only forbids you, with regard to those who FIGHT YOU for (your) Faith, and DRIVE YOU OUT OF YOUR HOMES, and SUPPORT (others) in DRIVING YOU OUT, from TURNINR TO THEM (FOR FRIENDSHIP AND PROTECTION). It is such as turn to them (in these circumstances), that do wrong.60:8-9" clear,isn't it?!!And now who is TELLING HALF OF THE TUTH?!!
You are.

The half-truth here is that you are trying to imply that passages allowing or requiring self-defense are all Allah says about war.

An honest person who knows Islam's "sacred" texts would admit that Allah's last commands required offensive warfare against the Infidel to make the world Islam.

That you still continue to try to suggest otherwise speaks ill either of your knowledge of Islam or of your veracity.
*What my kind, tolerant and merciful prophet did with atheists of his tribe when he entered Mecca(who KILLED MUSLIMS,TOURTREED his followers, BANISHMENT him from his motherland"Mecca" and were HARMING HIM PERSONALLY and tried to KILL HIM)?He said to them:"Go and you're free".Don't you know that?
And Hitler was nice to kittens.

Even if that is true (citation?), it does not negate the fact that Allah still says, "Fight against...the People of the Book until they feel themselves subdued and pay the jizya," "Fight...until all religion is for Allah," "...kill the unbelievers wherever you find them." And unfortunately for infidels everywhere, too many Muslims have been faithful to their god.
*And in Al-Yarmok war,Muslims had to leave countries they rule,so Abo Obayda ordered rulers to pay back Jizyah to non-muslims as they are busy and can't defend them,AND NON MUSLIMS THIS TIME WERE INTELLIGENT ENOUGH TO UNDERSTAND THAT IT'S A GOOD TRETMENT!!
And this negates Allah and his prophets commands to fight against, subdue and humiliate, and kill the unbeliever how?
*If non-muslim were accused by a muslim of doing prostitution and it wasn't true;the accuser must be punished by the punishment of Al-Qazf(accusing a man/woman of doing prostitution without the evidence and the evidence in Islam is:Four men see it or confession)
I don't think you want to tread into the treatment of women under Islam.
*Non-muslims aren't punished by Islamic punishment for Drinking beers and prostitution but are left to rules of their religions.
That makes their subjugation, oppression, and humiliation okay? Anything for a drink, I guess!
...However I don't think that REAL CHIRISTIANITY order you to hate,swear,direct accusations to Islam and call it truths...
First, I've not hated, sworn, or accused falsely anyone. I have pointed out Allah's commands and his apostle's words and deeds, to which you've offered no refutation or explanation. Instead, you've cited other passages having no bearing whatsoever on the universal requirement for jihad against non-Muslims, and you've tried to change the subject to a variety of topics, including supposed "crimes" against Islam by the West.
...but in contrary IT ORDERS YOU TO BELIEVE IN PROPHET MOHAMMED or you didn't read your Bible(I don't know which one is yours..Matta or Birnaba or Louqa…etc)
If your knowledge of Islam's "sacred" texts is as thorough as your knowledge of the Bible, perhaps you should reconsider your opposition to my arguments.

The Bible in no way commands anyone to believe in Mohammed; if anything, it reveals clearly and for all time that Mohammed was a false prophet preaching a false gospel, lying about YHWH and His Christ. (And as the Apostle Paul wrote, if even an angel from Heaven preaches a false gospel, let him be anathema!)

I've cited Qur'an, Hadith, and Sira to support my statements regarding Allah, his apostle, and his religion. Support your claim. Provide the Biblical reference(s) commanding Christians to believe in Mohammed.
I don't want you to forget what is happening to my brothers all over the world ON HANDS OF CHRISTIANS AND AMERICANS AND OTHERS like:
Israeel,Nigeria(ON HANDS OF CHRISTIANS),Thailand...
Citing places around the world where Jihad is murdering innocent non-Muslims? That hardly helps your case. Why not mention the Christian girls in Indonesia on their way to school being beheaded for Allah?
Iraq(on hands of Americans and it's full of works the least thing can be said about it that it's barbaric insolent,lippy works but any way it reveals AMERICAN NATURE and baseborn needs)…..and current affairs show that..and if these news don't reach you;it'll be another proof for American policy in fighting Islam and Muslims not a proof that it didn't happen,as when one do shameful works he'll hide it.
Yes, building schools, hospitals, and infrastructure, and spending American blood and money to kill Muslims who slaughter other Muslims (even children) for Allah--yes, that does reveal American nature!
*What about Israel: Palestinians are defending their country not practicing terrorism as if you backed about 60 years...
We can go through the history of Israel and the way in which its Muslim neighbors sought to annihilate it when it was reborn, but I doubt that will be helpful.
*And again about Jesus:what if a man-who trusts Jesus well-be week in front of appeals of life and his humanity defeated him and do a sin by his complete will and then he knew that he was mistaken?Is he forgived by just this knowledge and without asking god(I don't know which of the three)to forgive him?
One God.

A man is forgiven his sins by the blood of Christ, not anything he does. And if you think you don't sin, it would be good to remember that Jesus taught that whoever lusts or hates or covets breaks the Commandments of YHWH.
I think that you have a thing called Confession,Right?If you made a mistake with Sam,will you ask his servant to forgive you or you ask him personally to forgive you?
And how non-christians are forgived however they don't trust in Christ?Isn't this a contradiction?!!!
The Bible teaches that when Jesus Christ died, His death reconciled the whole world to God. The way in which a person actually experiences this forgiveness is through faith in Christ, for apart from Him, there is no forgiveness of sins.

Confessing one's sins to another Christian is a means by which we can be reminded of the forgiveness Christ has won for us.
And I don't believe that Jesus(Prophet Eisa)is son of the god!I know that his birth was amazing and also he was doing amazing things but it don't prove that he is son of the god but he was doing these things by ALLAH(his God).
Allah was not Christ's God; His God and Father is the God of Israel, YHWH. And certainly, you have the freedom to believe whatever you will.
And also he isn't son of the god because of more than one reason:Was he eating,going to bathroom,crying is that from physicals of god(or even son of him)?and he himself didn't say that he is the god!!And if he was son of the god why he hasn't brothers?!!If you said that it's more than strange…We're talking by the mind here...
Who has the authority and knowledge to speak of God? Whom should one believe? Christ, or you?

Through His prophets, YHWH revealed many things about the Messiah to come; when Jesus came, He proved Himself to be God in the Flesh. Jesus said of Himself that He was the "I AM," which is why His hearers--who knew that He was claiming to be equal with God--tried to kill Him for blasphemy.
And If he was really son of the god(he isn't)so Christians don't have a prophet!!!!
Can a mere man tell God what He can and cannot do? If the One Who spoke and the universe leapt in being can become flesh and live among us, can He not also be Prophet, Priest, and King? (Yes!)

Besides, Christians, as followers of Israel's Messiah, have as their own all of God's (true) prophets.
..."War is deceit",it means that in wars you should be more intelligent than your enemy and cheat him to make victory on him.
That's my point.
*"You're leaving out what 1400 years of Dhimma make painfully clear…"so now you think that there is not just contradiction in Islamic texts but it is fully against non-Muslims!IT'S YOU WHO ARE TELLING HALF OF THE TRUTH and leave merciful Islamic treatment towards non-muslims under REAL ISLAMIC STATE...
"Fully" is your word. How dishonest of you! I've never claimed all of Islam's texts command violence against non-Muslims; rather, I've pointed out a few of the many texts that do.

I've accurately cited Qur'an, Hadith, and Sira. Instead of demonstrating that I've misrepresented those passages from their own contexts, you've misrepresented my position and called the kettle black (even when it isn't), just like this:
...also you're forgetting what was done by Muslims in Andalusia(Spain and Portugal)after Muslims have been beaten BY CHIRISTIANS after 800 years of golden era of progress and also treating non-muslims mercifully and kindly as they weren't forced to convert Islam and took a lot of rights!!Do you know what was done in Andalusia?!!European Christians after ATTACKING MUSLIMS in butcherly wars;they FORCED Muslims to CONVERT CHIRISTIANITY and who refuse was KILLED.
In response to the eight centuries of the "mercy" of Islam you just admitted.

Do not the subjugated have a right to throw off a tyrant? If it was as good as you claim, why would they rebel?
*" Allah's religion encourages, condones, and requires brutality…..", " and since Mohammed and his followers regularly engaged in the worst kinds of violence against …. "," there is a huge difference between Muslim and non-Muslim.."I won't comment but just hope that this message replied for these LIES.
I cite Allah and his apostle's words and actions and the actions of his people against non-Muslims, and you say I am lying?

Allah will not be pleased.
*Making sex with slaves is a way for setting them free;as when the man make sex(sorry)with the slave she is considered as his wife and take rights of wife in Islam and on her will be rights of husband and her sons from him are free,and before Islam her sons from her master were slaves.(Islam didn't try to end slavery,Right?)
First a man rapes her with Allah's approval, then he gets to beat her too? What a Casanova!

Do you realize you're now justifying raping slaves?
...Did you see a religion that orders its followers to kill people,slay them and refuse any other non-follower of it;
Yes! Allah commands "...fight...until all religion is for Allah," "Fight...against the People of the Book until they feel themselves subdued and pay the jizya," and "...kill the unbelievers wherever you find them."
However I profess your God(it's Allah),your Holy Book(Bible sent from Allah not written several times by people from their minds) and your Prophet(Jesus the sent prophet by Allah).
You clearly do not believe in my God. If you did, you would follow Christ and honor Him just as you should honor the Father (as Jesus stated).
...But when the other side still telling obviously lies or he don't understand before he write and don't hear what you're saying and also forget so quickly or ignore intently!What will you do?!!
So, Allah lies? Mohammed lies? Maududi, Qutb (you can't be a "revivalist" if there was nothing there originally to revive), et al., are lying too?

How is citing your "holy" texts telling lies? You've not demonstrated that any of the passages I've cited have been misquoted or misrepresented. They best you've been able to do is to cite out-of-context a passage or two regarding self-defense (which I've previously acknowledged exist).

How is citing Islam's history of oppression, rape, and murder of non-Muslims (continued to this very day around the world) lying? Even you began to admit some of the injustice.

The problem for you (and for the non-Muslims unfortunate enough to have to endure Jihad and Dhimma) is that Allah's last commands and Mohammed's words and deeds clearly require violence against the Infidel and the Apostate. This you have not refuted, because you cannot.
...ALLAH ordered me to:" Invite (all) to the Way of thy Lord with wisdom and beautiful preaching; and argue with them in ways that are best and most gracious: for thy Lord knoweth best, who have strayed from His Path, and who receive guidance."
And if we won't convert, "Fight...until all religion is for Allah," "Fight...the People of the Book until they feel themselves subdued and pay the jizya," and "...kill the unbelievers wherever you find them."

That's some choice!
If I were to have had any doubt about whether or not I was misunderstanding the clear words of Allah and his apostle (I can read), Hadith, Sira, and your experts reassure me that I am not.

If you were to listen to traditional Islamic scholars from history and the present day, you would have to admit that I am representing Islam fairly and neutrally. Since you do not admit this, one must question either your knowledge of Islam or your veracity.

Some questions for you:
1. Do you renounce bin Laden as an unbeliever misrepresenting Qur'an, Hadith, and Sira?

2. Do you reject all offensive warfare against all non-Muslims?

3. Do you agree that all non-Muslims and women under an Islamic state should have fully the same rights as do male Muslims?

4. Do you reject Dhimma as unequal and unjust?

5. Do you reject Sura 9 and all other Islamic "sacred" texts requiring offensive violence against non-Muslims as false revelations?

6. Do you reject Mohammed's clear command to kill anyone who leaves his Islamic religion?

7. Do you acknowledge Israel's right to exist as a free nation in its historical homeland?
I'll be waiting.