Friday, June 09, 2006

Where does the blame lie for increasingly negative perceptions of Islam?

When one becomes romantically involved with Islam, one's judgment often clouds. More from Thread 23629:
Delphianblue,
HAHAHA! Do you know ANYTHING about history????????? Obviously not.
Laughter. That's a powerful rebuttal to any statement of historical fact.

Perhaps an account of the pope's call to defend Christians and Jerusalem in the First Crusade will shed light on this point.

Near the close of the eleventh century, the emperor of Byzantium asked for aid against the Seljuk Turks who had conquered most of Asia Minor, including the Holy Land (and this wasn't the first time Islam had attacked Constantinople, Islam having ravaged Christendom throughout the Middle East, northern Africa, and parts of Western and Eastern Europe by this time). The pope called for his people to go to the defense of fellow Christians who had suffered for several centuries at the hands of the Religion of Death. Here are excerpts of one account of what Urban II said:
Urged by necessity, I, Urban, by the permission of God chief bishop and prelate over the whole world, have come into these parts as an ambassador with a divine admonition to you, the servants of God....

"Although, O sons of God, you have promised more firmly than ever to keep the peace among yourselves and to preserve the rights of the church, there remains still an important work for you to do....For your brethren who live in the east are in urgent need of your help, and you must hasten to give them the aid which has often been promised them. For, as the most of you have heard, the Turks and Arabs have attacked them and have conquered the territory of Romania [the Greek empire] as far west as the shore of the Mediterranean and the Hellespont, which is called the Arm of St. George. They have occupied more and more of the lands of those Christians, and have overcome them in seven battles. They have killed and captured many, and have destroyed the churches and devastated the empire. If you permit them to continue thus for awhile...the faithful of God will be much more widely attacked by them. On this account I, or rather the Lord, beseech you as Christ's heralds to publish this everywhere and to persuade all people of whatever rank, foot-soldiers and knights, poor and rich, to carry aid promptly to those Christians....

...O what a disgrace if such a despised and base race, which worships demons, should conquer a people which has the faith of omnipotent God and is made glorious with the name of Christ! With what reproaches will the Lord overwhelm us if you do not aid those who, with us, profess the Christian religion! Let those who have been accustomed unjustly to wage private warfare against the faithful now go against the infidels and end with victory this war which should have been begun long ago....
So, no, the First Crusade was not a War for Oil.

Delphianblue continued...
I am not going to fight with you "Amillennialist" I have better things to do with my time.
Pointing out what Allah and his false prophet state according to Islamic "holy" texts is "fighting"?

(Now that you've had time to go back and revise your original post #15 to more emphatically support your husband,) I'd like to address several of your more recent comments.
I am not defending the terrorists...DUh..... these people that have done evil things.... but you have to understand that 99.99% of the Muslims out there are NOT terrorists.
They are only doing what Allah commands and their false prophet did. You're not implying that Qur'an and Hadith require "evil" behavior, are you?

I did not get the sense that Diver Dan was accusing you of defending terrorists. To try to make yourself a victim in response to his comment rather than address his point--that Muslims kill in the name of their god and there seems to be little to no effort on the part of "moderate" Muslims to stop it--throws into doubt your ability (or willingness) to address the matter of Jihad--and its main tactic, terrorism--honestly.

What you appear unwilling to acknowledge is that nearly all terrorist groups in the world today are Muslim. Whenever you hear of terrorism/genocide/murder motivated by religion in the world, to what religious tradition do those murderers appeal? Bahai? Calvinism? Buddhism? No, it is Islam. To whose "sacred" texts do they appeal for justification for their evil? The Bible? The Egyptian Book of the Dead? The Bhagavad Gita? No, the appeal is made to Qur'an and Sunnah.

That Diver Dan can list off the top of his head so many recent mass murders in the name of Allah makes your protestations appear disingenuous. Anyone following current events could provide an exhaustive list of Muslim atrocities carried out in the cause of Allah: the U.S. embassies in Africa, the Khobar Towers, the U.S.S. Cole, 9/11, Madrid 3/11, London 7/7, Beslan, Bali, etc.

Why were Indonesian Christian schoolgirls slaughtered on the way to school? Islam.

Anyone who has studied Islam's history would be able to list for you murder after murder, slaughter after slaughter, genocide after genocide carried out in the name of Allah beginning with Mohammed and continuing with his co-religionists throughout the subsequent thirteen centuries.

Especially disappointing is that you've addressed the point of my original post(s) not at all: Allah commands his people to fight against, subdue and humiliate, and kill non-Muslims until all humanity is subjugated under his rule, and Mohammed (considered the "Ideal Man" in Islam, whose example is to be followed religiously) warred, raped, looted, and enslaved in fulfillment of those commands.

The last point that should be made here is that even though a relatively small percentage of Muslims actually carry out violent Jihad (and how can you know the actual number?), what percentage of the Ummah support violent Jihad against non-Muslims (and apostates) by other means, whether financial, political, logistical, or otherwise?

What percentage of now-moderate, now-peaceful, now-Muslims-In-Name-Only will, at some significant life stressor, setback, reproach, or tragedy turn to Islam for comfort or direction? Can you guarantee that any Muslim will never read and believe the revealed word of his god and the example of his apostle? Can you guarantee that they won't obey those commands or imitate the horrific, monstrous example of Mohammed?

Democracy in the Middle East has resulted in one good thing (though not what many of us hoped would occur): Since the people of those nations have had the opportunity to express their will and overwhelmingly support terrorist organizations, the myth that most Muslims are against violence has been exploded (as if Qur'an, Sunnah and Islam's fourteen bloody centuries were not enough—but they haven't been enough for most politically-correct, multicultural-at-all-costs, afraid-to-be-called-a-name, afraid-to-admit-the-awful-truth Western dhimmis).
All I was saying is that I am getting REALLY sick and tired of people saying things about Islam and think that it applies to all Muslims...
Concern about being painted with abroad brush is reasonable.

Often when presented with Qur'an and Hadith people assume the messenger is condemning all Muslims when in fact the only thing the messenger is doing is...presenting Qur'an and Hadith!

Unfortunately, by definition, the word of Allah and example of his false prophet do apply to all Muslims, unless they are apostates. In a sense, it seems almost disrespectful to hope that the adherents of a religion reject their god's revealed will and fail to obey his commands, but that is all we have, isn't it?
...They have the freedom to believe and worship however they please....
That is true. And what do they choose to believe?

We can hope they choose to reject Allah's command (and Mohammed's example of obeying it) to "...kill the unbelievers wherever you find them" (Qur'an 9:5). Unfortunately, too many Muslims actually believe Allah and revere his false prophet.
...and 99.99% of Muslims wouldn't even think of hurting anyone else.
Only if 99.99% of Muslims reject Qur'an and Sunnah.

Since Allah and his false prophet command fighting against, subduing and humiliating, and killing non-Muslims, the number of the faithful who do actually think of hurting Infidels and Apostates must be quite high, mustn't it? Or are you implying that nearly all Muslims are ignorant of (or reject outright) the clear word of Allah and the example of his apostle? Do you really believe that nearly all of Islam is apostate?
Politics motivate people to do such things... and desperation.
That is a common falsehood perpetuated by deceitful Muslims and gullible Infidels. According to the terrorists, it is the word of Allah and the example of his apostle that motivate "such things." And the idea that poverty/prejudice are the real factors behind jihadist terrorism is also a lie, as evidenced by the number of wealthy, well-educated Muslims aiding or engaging in Jihad.
These crazy lunatic Jihadists use Islam the WRONG way...
They obey the will of Allah and emulate their prophet, but you say they use Islam the "wrong" way? How condescending! Who are you to judge how they practice their religion? Allah will not be pleased!
...its like when a right-wing Christian goes into a Planned Parenthood, and bombs the building, killing doctors, nurses, and innocent men and women... because "KILLING IS BAD" so they bomb the abortion clinic. ??? Do you understand what point I am trying to make? Do they represent all Christians?
I do understand the point you are trying to make. You are clumsily engaging in tu quoque, and that is intellectually dishonest.

First, Christians are not bombing abortion clinics in every land inhabited by Christians. Second, Christians have no Biblical justification for doing so.

When a Muslim kills an Infidel or Apostate for being an Infidel or Apostate, it is in obedience to Allah. The Bible contains no universal commands for warfare against unbelievers to make the world Christian.
During WW2 some Americans took out their anger on Japanese Immigrants.... And now its happening with Arabs.
If anyone is unjustly harmed, that is a crime.

However, it is not unreasonable to wonder at the trustworthiness of someone whose chosen deity commands him to war against all those who reject his faith.
I am just trying to explain how this is not fair... especially to everyday people... who happen to be Muslim, or happen to love someone who is.
It is a difficult situation, but whose fault is it? Is it the fault of non-Muslims who are the targets of Islam's historic, "divinely"-sanctioned murder and oppression? Or is the god and prophet who command such violence at fault? What of all those who lend their financial, electoral, logistical, and moral support?

What decent person can see with their own eyes Allah's universal, eternal commands for fighting against, subduing and humiliating, and killing non-Muslims and still vow fealty to him?
And just to be clear on a few things.... what version of the Quran do you have? Obviously its translated from Arabic to English. You must be careful on the translation, Arabic is a hard language to translate... I am assuming that you do NOT speak Arabic...so how can you really decipher what is in the Quran? You are taking someone's translation.... their viewpoint on the book.
You are assuming many things.

Have you read Qur'an and Hadith? If you have, then you are a liar for denying its contents. If you have not, then how can you honestly argue any point I've made on those texts?

Instead of wondering which translation I use, why not address the factual question of whether or not Qu'ran and Hadith actually say what I've cited here? Why not address the implications for Infidels of over one billion people who claim obedience to a god that would command such evil?
...And I would like to know who's views you are reading...
Allah's, of course (Qur'an). And his apostle's (Hadith).
I heard this **** from my family before I was married... and now they absolutely adore my husband. People just need to have their eyes opened... and their hearts.
I hope for your and your family's sake he continues as an apostate.
My question to you... How many Muslims do you personally know? If you actually spoke with one, maybe you could get some of your questions answered, and concerns addressed. Stop being so fearful.
I cite Islam's own "sacred" texts and you say that is being "fearful"?

I noted in my first post here that Islam's apologists often resort to ad hominem attacks and charges of racism/Islamophobia rather than deal with the fact that all around the world Muslims are maiming, raping, and killing non-Muslims in the name of Allah, in fulfillment of his commands.

Rather than address my statements of fact, you impugn my character and imply that my assertions are based on prejudicial and unfounded assumptions. Is that intellectually honest?

If I've spoken to none, one, or a million Muslims (do you know how many?), does that change what Allah and the prophet from hell require? Just in case you forgot, here's a very small sampling of what your god of peace demands:
"...fight and slay the Pagans wherever ye find them, and seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war); but if they repent, and establish regular prayers and practise regular charity, then open the way for them: for Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful" (Qur’an 9:5).

"Fight them, and Allah will punish them by your hands, cover them with shame, help you (to victory) over them, heal the breasts of Believers..." (Qur'an 9:14).

"Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued" (Qur'an 9:29).

"Say to the Unbelievers, if (now) they desist (from Unbelief), their past would be forgiven them; but if they persist, the punishment of those before them is already (a matter of warning for them). And fight them on until there is no more tumult or oppression, and there prevail justice and faith in Allah altogether and everywhere; but if they cease, verily Allah doth see all that they do" (Qur'an 8:38, 39).
And here is his apostle's example:
“Muhammad said, ‘A single endeavor of fighting in Allah’s Cause is better than the world and whatever is in it’” (Bukhari Volume 4, Book 52, Number 50).

“Allah’s Apostle said, ‘I have been made victorious with terror. The treasures of the world were brought to me and put in my hand’” (Bukhari Volume 4, Book 52, Number 220).

"Allah's Apostle said: 'I have been ordered (by Allah) to fight against the people until they testify that none has the right to be worshipped but Allah and that Muhammad is Allah's Apostle, and offer the prayers perfectly and give the obligatory charity, so if they perform that, then they save their lives and property from me except for Islamic laws and then their reckoning (accounts) will be done by Allah'" (Bukhari Volume 1, Book 2, Number 24).
Delphianblue continues...
The suicide bombers/Jihadists, can all go to hell.
I'm pretty sure they are.

What about those who support them? Majorities of Muslim nations support their attacks against the U.S. and Israel. What of those who support the establishment of Shari'a (which means tyranny and vile oppression for non-Muslims and women)? Even in the U.K., nearly a majority of Muslims support it.
Shame on them for turning on the world. Shame on us for making the rest of the population of Muslims feel like the world has turned on them.
Shame on those who, rather than address the fact that Allah and his false prophet require the fighting against, subduing and humiliating, and killing of non-Muslims (and apostates) to make the world Islam, try to keep Infidels blind to—and impotent in the face of--Allah's War Against Humanity.

Shame on those who worship such a god.