Monday, July 16, 2007

Justifying Mohammed's raping a nine-year-old child and other atrocities

Here is a rebuttal to an earlier post with my comments.

Note that the author never demonstrates I've misrepresented Allah's commands or Mohammed's words and deeds.

He never approaches my citations of the Islamic scriptures at all except to defend raping a nine-year-old child.
I will respond to your closing . . . “...the one who commanded terror, enslavement, and genocide...the one who lied, stole, enslaved, raped (including a nine-year-old child), and butchered -- and commanded his followers to do the same...”
Were you able to demonstrate that I misrepresented any of the passages I cited?
But first I’d like to say that the “Muslims” who commit those acts, and I quote Muslim because they’re truly just using the faith as a vessel of hate; those people are dictators and tribal regimes, saying they speak for all Muslims is like saying that the KKK speaks for all Christians.
Where have I said that anyone "speaks for all Muslims"?

That statement is a barrel of red herrings because it asserts a moral equivalence between two relationships that do not exist. One must be ignorant of Biblical teachings to believe the latter part of your argument; one must be ignorant of Islam's scriptures (or hope others are!) to assert the former.

As is clear from Islam's core texts, the commands and justifications for genocide, assassination, murder, rape, pedophilia, slavery, stealing, lying, etc., all come from the word of Allah and the example of Mohammed.

The racial hatred and violence espoused by the KKK is diametrical to the words and deeds of Christ.

Neither does one find nominal Christians around the world becoming devout, joining the KKK and killing non-Christians in the name of Christ.

(By the way, dictatorships and tribal regimes do not necessarily preclude the faithful carrying out Jihad. They are not mutually-exclusive.)
clearly against Islam, as are the things you claim Muslims commit.
I claim? That's false. Those exhortations to -- and records of -- evil are straight from Islam's "holy" texts. You cannot dismiss them, and you cannot demonstrate I've misrepresented them.
"There are people in your faith as in mine who claim to be Muslim or a person of the book . . ."
How do you know they are not? Do you have some special integrity detector? Can you see into their hearts? Is it only your personal opinion on which you rely?

You know whether or not a person's life and doctrine are consistent with their god's revealed will by comparing their life and doctrine to . . . their god's revealed will.

For the Christian, that means the Bible. For the Muslim, that means Qur''an, Hadith, and Sira.
Osama Bin Laden is no religious figure in the Muslim world
He is a hero in much of the Muslim world. What major traditional Muslim organization has denounced him by name? Generic renunciations of "all terrorism" (meaning Israel) do not qualify.
the Imams and leaders of the sane Muslim nations denounce terrorism and send their sympathy to whom terrorists have slain.
Just addressed.
I’d also like to send you this passage from the Koran . . . .
Another red herring. It in no way negates the commands for offensive warfare to submit the world to the rule of Allah.
Rape: Premarital sex is prohibited in the Koran . . .
Premarital sex is not [necessarily] rape.

And as you must know, the example of Mohammed is determinative in Islam to the point that even what Mohammed saw and allowed is a foundation of religious doctrine and practice.

Besides that, what did Mohammed do and say? It was his law that spoils of (almost always offensive) war included women. Raping "(a captive) that your right hands possess . . ." (Qur'an 4:3 and 24) was not only acceptable, Mohammed's doing it made it "beautiful."

After slaughtering the men of one tribe, the false prophet took a woman he especially desired for himself:
"...we reached Khaibar; and when Allah enabled him to conquer the Fort (of Khaibar), the beauty of Safiya bint Huyai bin Akhtab was described to him. Her husband had been killed while she was a bride. So Allah's Apostle selected her for himself and took her along with him till we reached a place called Sad-AsSahba,' where her menses were over and he took her for his wife..." (Bukhari Volume 4, Book 52, Number 143).
Do you honestly think she found his butchering of her husband and people attractive?
I’ve lost count of the amount of times people have brought up the prophet Muhammad . . . and his wife Aisha, but I will gladly clear this up for you. . . . people of all color, region, and religion married young wives . . .
You're justifying child rape.

Just to clear this up for you: you're justifying child rape.

Mohammed was in his fifties. According to most ahadith, Aisha was six when they "married." He began raping her when she was nine. (Where's Oprah?)

Who -- other than Muslims -- are allowed (even encouraged, since Allah says Mohammed was a "beautiful pattern of conduct") to rape children? Present one Biblical text allowing sex with nine-year-olds.

This is one more example of the danger to the human mind and soul posed by believing Mohammed was some sort of prophet.

His life and doctrines were perverse, but you defend something much worse than just perversion. Can't you see that? Have you no conscience at all?
. . . and to this day older men marry young wives where the age of consent is low.
Where is the age of consent low? And even if it is, how does that make it right?
People of your book and the jews also married young wives and I believe some were younger than Aisha
Prove it. Citations.

What kind of monster would even consider sex with a nine-year-old? And you want to justify it by saying others go for younger children? How much younger? Pre-natal?

Do you realize what you're doing? You're justifying child rape. You're sick.
I can’t see as something wrong
Disgusting.
it was common during those times.
Among savages, monsters, and pedophiles.

And how do you justify Allah's "ordaining" it?
When Muhammad . . . married Aisha, what would stop him from having intercourse with her?
There is one fact you seem to have neglected: SHE WAS A CHILD.
During the Mosaic Law girls younger than Aisha were being forced into marriage
Citations, please. Demonstrate from the Biblical texts that it was commanded or allowed.

Just because an act is recorded to have happened doesn't mean that it is good or permissible except in Islam, since whatever the pedophile prophet did is a "beautiful pattern of conduct" for the faithful.
and fathers even sold their daughters into slavery.
Again, demonstrate from the Biblical texts that selling one's daughter into sexual slavery was commanded or allowed.

This is another tu quoque and red herring, since the topic was what your god and prophet require. So far you've only confirmed Mohammed was a sexual predator, murderer, and pedophile.
Don’t point fingers unless your hands are clean, because you’re bringing up something which was accepted during those times and is still practiced in some areas. Not to mention it was also done by people of your faith.
Because the scum of the earth like Mohammed raped children, my hands are dirty? That is nonsense and false. You need to apologize.

What bearing does my faith have on what your god and pedophile demand, which was the topic of my comments? Even if someone who self-identifies as "Christian" commits such a crime, that doesn't make his wickedness and depravity acceptable or good.

Demonstrate from the Bible where YHWH ordained child rape as Allah did for Mohammed.
But what are you saying Muhammad . . . lied about or stole?
I am saying what your "holy" texts say:
"War is deceit" (Bukhari Volume 4, Book 52, Number 268).

"Allah's Apostle said, 'Who is willing to kill Ka'b bin Al-Ashraf who has hurt Allah and His Apostle?' Thereupon Muhammad bin Maslama got up saying, 'O Allah's Apostle! Would you like that I kill him?' The Prophet said, 'Yes,' Muhammad bin Maslama said, 'Then allow me to say a (false) thing (i.e. to deceive Kab).' The Prophet said, 'You may say it' (Bukhari, Volume 5, Book 59, Number 369).

"Let not the believers Take for friends or helpers Unbelievers rather than believers: if any do that, in nothing will there be help from Allah: except by way of precaution, that ye may Guard yourselves from them. But Allah cautions you (To remember) Himself; for the final goal is to Allah" (Qur'an 3:28).
"he killed their men, and distributed their women, children and properties among the Muslims . . . " (Muslim Book 019, Number 4363-4366).
Continued . . .
your Bible doesn’t say [Jesus] was perfect either I believe.
If you have no idea what the Bible teaches, why would you offer any opinion at all?

Here is one of many verses describing Christ as without sin: "God had Christ, who was sinless, take our sin so that we might receive God's approval through him" (2 Corinthians 5:21).
Come to think of it, in your bible the only person mentioned as being free of sin was [Abraham]?
No, Abraham sinned also. You've not read the Bible at all, have you?

Find out for yourself what the texts say, as I have. Every quotation of Islamic "sacred" texts I've given demonstrating the hellishness of Allah and his apostle has been from . . . Islamic "sacred" texts.
The prophets Muhammad and Isa however were great individuals and their lives could be a model for anyone to live their lives by.
That's blasphemous and shamefully false.

Jesus committed no sin, healed the sick, raised the dead, spoke the words of YHWH, died for the sins of the whole world, and rose from the dead Himself.

Mohammed lied, stole, enslaved, raped, slaughtered, and taught others to do the same.

That you would claim any sort of moral equivalence between them is inexplicable apart from complete ignorance of both religions' scriptures [or the deadening of tour.
And also, how could one worship Isa when he himself doesn’t claim to be Allah[God]?
First, Jesus never claimed to be Allah, the deity of Islam.

Second, the name with which YHWH revealed Himself to Moses -- "I AM!" -- Jesus claimed as His own: "Jesus told them, "I can guarantee this truth: Before Abraham was ever born, I AM" (John 8:58).
""Why do you call me good?" Jesus answered. "No one is good–except God alone." (From the NIV Bible, Mark 10:18)
It was a rhetorical question to make a point to someone who had yet to realize that he was addressing God Incarnate.

That you so carelessly mishandle Biblical texts demonstrates you've done none of your own study.

From where did you get that non-answer, a site for convincing Muslims ignorant of the Bible, or a site for convincing Western non-Muslims ignorant of it?
"The most important one," answered Jesus, "is this: 'Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one. (From the NIV Bible, Mark 12:29)
"One God" has been Christian doctrine since Christ. That this God is revealed in three persons -- Father, Son, and Holy Spirit -- is also Biblical.

Here are some passages your resource probably didn't share with you:

In the beginning the Word [Logos, Christ] already existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was already with God in the beginning.

Everything came into existence through him. Not one thing that exists was made without him.

He was the source of life, and that life was the light for humanity.

. . . He was in the world, and the world came into existence through him. Yet, the world didn't recognize him.

. . . The Word became human and lived among us. We saw his glory. It was the glory that the Father shares with his only Son, a glory full of kindness and truth" (John 1).

and,

They asked him, "How long will you keep us in suspense? If you are the Messiah, tell us plainly."

Jesus answered them, "I've told you, but you don't believe me. The things that I do in my Father's name testify on my behalf.

However, you don't believe because you're not my sheep. My sheep respond to my voice, and I know who they are. They follow me, and I give them eternal life. They will never be lost, and no one will tear them away from me. My Father, who gave them to me, is greater than everyone else, and no one can tear them away from my Father.

The Father and I are one" (John 10).

Here comes the tried and true . . .
Both your Bible and my noble Koran claim God is one and one alone.
Jesus said He is the Son of God: "Then all of them said, "So you're the Son of God?" Jesus answered them, "You're right to say that I AM" (Luke 22).

Mohammed said:
"In blasphemy indeed are those that say that Allah is Christ the son of Mary. Say: "Who then hath the least power against Allah, if His will were to destroy Christ the son of Mary, his mother, and all every - one that is on the earth? For to Allah belongeth the dominion of the heavens and the earth, and all that is between. He createth what He pleaseth. For Allah hath power over all things" (Qur'an 5:17).

"They do blaspheme who say: Allah is one of three in a Trinity: for there is no god except One Allah. If they desist not from their word (of blasphemy), verily a grievous penalty will befall the blasphemers among them" (Qur'an 5:73).

"The Jews call 'Uzair a son of Allah, and the Christians call Christ the son of Allah. That is a saying from their mouth; (in this) they but imitate what the unbelievers of old used to say. Allah's curse be on them: how they are deluded away from the Truth" (Qur'an 9:30)!
So, your Mohammed calls Christ a "blasphemer," "cursed," and "deluded." Mohammed is the enemy of Christ.
Professor Shahul Hameed said it better than I will ever be able to concerning this situation:

“As is borne out by this command of God in the Qur’an, Muslims must believe in all the prophets of God previously sent to humanity. This means that they are not permitted to show any disrespect to any prophet or to the religion he taught to his followers. To a Muslim, religious belief must come out of a person’s free choice, as God has also commanded not to use any kind of coercion in the matter of religion”
You can quote your professor. But your god and prophet say:

"the Messenger of Allah . . . would say: 'Fight in the name of Allah and in the way of Allah. Fight against those who disbelieve in Allah. Make a holy war. . . . When you meet your enemies who are polytheists, invite them to three courses of action. . . . Invite them to (accept) Islam; if they respond to you, accept it from them and desist from fighting against them. . . . If they refuse to accept Islam, demand from them the Jizya. If they agree to pay, accept it from them and hold off your hands. If they refuse to pay the tax, seek Allah's help and fight them . . .'" (Muslim Book 019, Number 4294).

"fight and slay the Pagans wherever ye find them, and seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war) . . . " (Qur’an 9:5).


"Fight them, and Allah will punish them by your hands, cover them with shame, help you (to victory) over them, heal the breasts of Believers . . . " (Qur'an 9:14).

"Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued" (Qur'an 9:29).

"Say to the Unbelievers, if (now) they desist (from Unbelief), their past would be forgiven them; but if they persist, the punishment of those before them is already (a matter of warning for them). And fight them on until there is no more tumult or oppression, and there prevail justice and faith in Allah altogether and everywhere; but if they cease, verily Allah doth see all that they do" (Qur'an 8:38, 39).

"O ye who believe! fight the unbelievers who gird you about, and let them find firmness in you: and know that Allah is with those who fear Him" (Qur'an 9:123).

"Fighting is prescribed for you, and ye dislike it. But it is possible that ye dislike a thing which is good for you, and that ye love a thing which is bad for you. But Allah knoweth, and ye know not" (Qur'an 2:216).

"Allah's Apostle said: 'I have been ordered (by Allah) to fight against the people until they testify that none has the right to be worshipped but Allah and that Muhammad is Allah's Apostle . . .
'" (Bukhari Volume 1, Book 2, Number 24).

"Against them make ready your strength to the utmost of your power, including steeds of war, to strike terror into (the hearts of) the enemies, of Allah and your enemies, and others besides, whom ye may not know, but whom Allah doth know. Whatever ye shall spend in the cause of Allah, shall be repaid unto you, and ye shall not be treated unjustly" (Qur'an 8:60).
And as for respecting other religions, what part of "fight . . . until all religion is for Allah . . . ," is respectful? Does "Those who reject (Truth), among the People of the Book and among the Polytheists, will be in Hell-Fire, to dwell therein (for aye). They are the worst of creatures" (Qur'an 98:6) sound like tolerance?

Whom will you believe, your professor or Allah's apostle?
And I’m asking you to read this article: http://www.islamonline.net/english/introducingislam/tolerance/article04.shtml
Does it negate Mohammed's confessions to slaughter, rape, and terror? Any pretense of Islamic tolerance is shattered by your prophet's own words.

Until you deal with that, you endanger your own soul and the souls of all with whom you have influence. You are part of the problem.
As you said the passage I sent you was meant for a specific people and them alone, the passages you’re quoting are also for specific times. The word “Jihad” is also too often misused, Allah almighty doesn’t command Muslims to kill non-Muslims for no reason . . . .
That is patently false, as the numerous Islamic texts cited (again) above demonstrate conclusively.

I've presented "divine" commands regarding a number of topics repugnant to decent people, including those for offensive warfare to make the world Islam. You've done nothing to demonstrate that I've erred with even one passage. The passages you've provided do not address that topic at all. You would have done as well to quote an automotive repair manual.

If you want to claim something like, "Well, there's contradictions here just like in your Bible," I would say two things: First, there are not contradictions in the Bible (if you say there are, prove it); Second, the contradictions in Qur'an are resolved by the Doctrine of Abrogation (naskh), which is why earlier passages requiring or allowing cooperation with non-Muslims were abrogated in favor of the many Passages of Blood.
I've been talking to a scholar recently and he made me realize my time would be better spent studying the Koran, Muslim history, and other Muslim literature.
He's trying to recruit you to jihad. Beware.

You ought to spend your time reading the Gospels. There you will learn of the God you seek. He's seeking you.
I'd be happy to answer you.
That is generous of you, but you've not yet answered one of my points regarding jihad.
debating this with you I walk a thin line with sin.
You defend child rape and genocide, and talking to me flirts with sin?

Perhaps he's afraid you'll realize what a corrupt ideology you've adopted.
I am in no position, as I am no scholar, to debate this with you
So it seems.
you're in no position either.
Was it my taking Biblical verses out-of-context to justify a doctrine that no Christian has ever held? Was it avoiding-at-all-costs addressing numerous verses of blood and brutality? Was it my use of false tu quoque arguments and moral equivalences?

No, all of that was you.
send me your rebuttal, I will read it but will not be able to answer.
You have yet to answer my first one.