Monday, October 29, 2007

Never use a religion's authoritative texts in evaluating it. It's so much more edifying just to make things up!

To Lexa, from here:
various sects of Christians have been killing each other since long before the birth of . . . Muhammad, which is true. As for not knowing what I am talking about, this is a historical fact. I am sorry that my use of the term "Protestant" so confused you that you chose do discount my point entirely.
You ought to be apologizing for your historical illiteracy, not blaming others for it.

As to your "historical fact," since Christians were persecuted as a matter of policy until the fourth century and Mohammed was born in the sixth, what "sects" were killing each other during those two hundred years? Please be specific.
lagoMatamoros: I think that you are missing my point entirely. Just as I refuse to play what I refer to as "the Bible game" with conservative Christians, so will I refuse to play this game with you. I did not, and will not, debate specific passages of any revealed religious text. I believe that such efforts are both useless and futile.
Yes, never use facts in a debate/discussion, and whatever you do, never, ever use a religion's authoritative texts in analyzing that religion!

It's so much more edifying just to make things up.
My point, which you apparently did not get,
Again blaming the victim. How honest of you!
People have some strange desire to point out how much more intolerant Islam is than any other religion that could possibly be. I assert that this is not the case; rather, there are plenty of religions that are comperably intolerant. I chose Christianity because it is comperable to Islam both in size and geographical spread. I think that we have all agreed on this comparison, yes?
No, that's a tu quoque argument, a logical fallacy. If the topic is whether or not Islam is intolerant, discussing any other religion has absolutely no bearing whatsoever on determining an answer.

If you want to compare religions, you may, but if you rule out using their foundational documents to evaluate them, all you have left is human behavior which may or may not reflect accurately their gods' wills.

Feel free to argue from ignorance, but you will not find such a comparison beneficial to Islam since it has raped, enslaved, and slaughtered hundreds of millions (billions?) of non-Muslims in the name of Allah since Mohammed first began the bloodshed nearly fourteen hundred years ago.

And your Religionists of Peace have carried out around the world nearly 10,000 attacks since 9/11 alone.
To quote rabello
Do you really want to cite rabello? He was eviscerated by an exceptionally skilled (yet restrained) member in the "Why revile Muslims?" thread on the old board.
those who are so ready to point out the intolerance within Islam do no such justice to religions like Christianity.
That's because Christians are not running around raping, enslaving, and slaughtering non-Christians in the name of Jesus.

Neither do you find any commands from Christ to "kill the unbelievers wherever you find them" (Qur'an 9:5), or to, "Fight against the people . . . until they pay the jizya with willing submission and feel themselves subdued" (Qur'an 9:29).

Which is, of course, why you won't go to the texts. As long as you avoid addressing them, you can say, "What about McVeigh?" (not a Christian) in hopes that no one notices that for every Western nut violating Christ's commands, there are ten thousand Muslims obeying Allah and imitating Mohammed as they slaughter infidels.
I, and many others, call this discriminatory.
Which indicates that you've don't have any substantive (read, "fact-based") argument to make in defense of Islam.
If you want to flood the debate/discussion board with flame posts, fine, its your time and energy. But I will continue to disagree with you in principal until I see you posting like this on the board of every major religion.
That's several falsehoods in one.

First, I am not "flooding" the board.

Second, neither are my posts "flames." I cite the word of Allah and the example of Mohammed in explaining the teachings and practices of those who want to "fight until all religion is for Allah."

Third, it is illogical to say that one's criticism of A is invalid unless one criticizes similarly B through Z, whether or not the others deserve such criticism.

Fourth, to say "I will continue to disagree with you in principal until I see you posting like this on the board of every major religion." is an admission that your only basis for disagreeing is not what the religion actually teaches and practices, but emotion.
My question to you: what is so special about Islam that it deserves the dubious pleasure of all this attention? Why not devote this much anger to the sects of other religions that cause untold pain and suffering on a daily basis?
To answer your second question first: Name one religion that causes "untold pain and suffering on a daily basis." There's only one, and that's the one the god of which commands the faithful to "cause untold pain and suffering on a daily basis" until "all religion is for Allah."

And as for the first, the answer is noted above. The squeaky genocidal mass-murderer gets the grease.

No major religion's adherents rape, enslave, and slaughter those who refuse to convert or submit to their god but Islam.

Worse than that, the will of Allah and the example of Mohammed require such violence:
"the Messenger of Allah . . . would say: 'Fight in the name of Allah and in the way of Allah. Fight against those who disbelieve in Allah. Make a holy war. . . . When you meet your enemies who are polytheists, invite them to three courses of action. . . . Invite them to (accept) Islam . . . If they refuse to accept Islam, demand from them the Jizya . . . If they refuse to pay the tax, seek Allah's help and fight them . . .'" (Muslim Book 19, Number 4294).

"fight and slay the Pagans wherever ye find them, and seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war) . . . " (Qur’an 9:5).

"Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued" (Qur'an 9:29).

"Allah's Apostle said: 'I have been ordered (by Allah) to fight against the people until they testify that none has the right to be worshipped but Allah and that Muhammad is Allah's Apostle . . . '" (Bukhari Volume 1, Book 2, Number 24).

“Allah’s Apostle said, ‘I have been made victorious with terror.’” (Bukhari Volume 4, Book 52, Number 220).