Saturday, June 05, 2010

A. Hussien first denies Muhammad began raping little, prepubescent Aisha when she was nine, then he says child rape was "common in that time and was not non-familiar"

You can't have it both ways.  Either the Islamic texts mean what they say -- and Muslims have understood them to say for nearly one and one-half millennia -- or they do not.  If they do, then Allah is the devil and Muhammad is its apostle.

A. Hussien begins with:
"I've never called you a liar"
Suggesting that I've never read Qur'an but instead just copy-and-paste from "anti-Islam" sites is impugning my character and attributing to me dishonesty.
"I've adequate knowledge of my religion's instructions which allows me to assist you to understand what you may not understood correctly."
Great. Then you should acknowledge that what I've written of Muhammad and cited from your own "sacred" texts is accurate.
"I'm glad that you're using USC's MSA Compendium of Muslim Texts (Noble Qur'an) as it's the same one I use when I post translated verses"
USC's MSA's translations are by Pickthal, Shakir, and Yusuf-Ali. The "Noble" Qur'an I referenced is the translation by Muhammad Taqi-ud-Din Al-Hilali and Muhammad Muhsin Khan.
"my heart reassures when I read it and it doesn't derive from it but peace, knowledge, good and beauty"
How can you derive from "sacralized" slaughter, rape, and slavery anything but horror, revulsion, and rage?
"and how it has a negative impact on you"
You call commands to behead us and rape and enslave our wives and children "negative."
"Islam is not for everybody"
Not decent people, at least. Or non-Muslims or Muslim apostates, women, and little girls.
"and people do not think in the same way."
That's an basic difference between you and me: You think that people can disagree on whether or not to brutalize, violate, and vivisect "unbelievers." I don't.
"Who's the author of the copy you own of sirat rasul Allah?"
There's only one of author of that biography [Ishaq], of course. Being an expert on Islam, you should know that.
"I didn't lie, - now who's calling the other a liar?"
Anyone who claims to know Islam well enough to teach me but denies its barbarism and depravity is a liar.
"God revealed all these verses to Mohammed peace be upon him in times of war."
Are you so unfamiliar with the genocidal pedophile's history? You must know that Muhammad received his first "revelation" when he was out in solitude performing a pagan religious ritual. Terrified that he was possessed by a demon (he was right), it was Khadijah who assured him that Allah was going to protect him.

It is true that in the beginning Muhammad's message was not well-received, but neither name-calling nor rejection justify violence, and there was no "war" until Muhammad had an army and began waging it. Essentially, you're blaming non-Muslims for defending themselves against Muhammad.
"But do not forget that Islam prescribed a code of conduct in war which remains unsurpassed to this day."
Yes, today we slaughter any man who surrenders and rape and enslave his wife and children (our leaders getting first pick of whom to rape AND a fifth of the spoils -- greedy!). No, wait! That was Muhammad. Well, at least we wage offensive warfare on religious grounds. No, sorry again! That, too, was Muhammad. Okay, let me try one more time: We pin nursing mothers to the ground with large blades through their chests for mocking our prophets. Oh! That was Muhammad, too!

"Unsurpassed"? In hellishness? Yes.
"Part of his instructions to the Muslim army was: ". . . Do not kill an old man, a woman or a child. Do not injure date palms and do not cut down fruit trees . . . ."
An expert on Islam like yourself would know that Muhammad made exceptions to Allah's rules whenever it suited him, such as . . .

. . . killing women and children:
"The Prophet passed by me at a place called Al-Abwa or Waddan, and was asked whether it was permissible to attack the pagan warriors at night with the probability of exposing their women and children to danger. The Prophet replied, "They (i.e. women and children) are from them (i.e. pagans)." (Bukhari Volume 4, Book 52, Number 256).
. . . slaughtering the elderly:
"Then occurred the "sariyyah" [raid] of Salim Ibn Umayr al-Amri against Abu Afak, the Jew, in [the month of] Shawwal in the beginning of the twentieth month from the hijrah [immigration from Mecca to Medina in AD 622], of the Apostle of Allah. Abu Afak, was from Banu Amr Ibn Awf, and was an old man who had attained the age of one hundred and twenty years. He was a Jew, and used to instigate the people against the Apostle of Allah, and composed (satirical) verses [about Muhammad].

Salim Ibn Umayr who was one of the great weepers and who had participated in Badr, said, 'I take a vow that I shall either kill Abu Afak or die before him.' He waited for an opportunity until a hot night came, and Abu Afak slept in an open place. Salim Ibn Umayr knew it, so he placed the sword on his liver and pressed it till it reached his bed. The enemy of Allah screamed and the people who were his followers, rushed to him, took him to his house and interred him" (Ibn Sa'd, Kitab al Tabaqat al Kabir, Volume 2, (2), p.32).
. . . murdering women for mocking him:
"When the apostle heard what she had said he said, 'Who will rid me of Marwan's daughter?' Umayr bin Adiy al-Khatmi who was with him heard him, and that very night he went to her house and killed her.

In the morning he came to the apostle and told him what he had done and he [Muhammad] said, 'You have helped Allah and His apostle, O Umayr!' When he asked if he would have to bear any evil consequences the apostle said, 'Two goats won't butt their heads about her,' so Umayr went back to his people.

Now there was a great commotion among Banu Khatma that day about the affair of bint [daughter of] Marwan. She had five sons, and when Umayr went to them from the apostle he said, 'I have killed bint Marwan, o sons of Khatma. Withstand me if you can; don't keep me waiting.' That was the first day Islam became powerful among Banu Khatma; before that those who were Muslims concealed the fact . . .The day after Bint Marwan was killed the men of Banu Khatma became Muslims because they feared for their lives" (Ibn Ishaq, Sirat Rasul Allah).

"Then (occurred) the sariyyah of Umayr ibn adi Ibn Kharashah al-Khatmi against Asma Bint Marwan [. . .] She used to revile Islam, offend the prophet and instigate the (people) against him. She composed verses. Umayr Ibn Adi came to her in the night and entered her house. Her children were sleeping around her. There was one whom she was suckling. He searched her with his hand because he was blind, and separated the child from her. He thrust his sword in her chest till it pierced up to her back. Then he offered the morning prayers with the prophet at al-Medina.

The apostle of Allah said to him: "Have you slain the daughter of Marwan?" He said: "Yes. Is there something more for me to do?" He [Muhammad] said: "No . . . " (Ibn Sa'd's Kitab al-Tabaqat al-Kabir).

"A blind man had a slave-mother who used to abuse the Prophet [. . .] and disparage him. He forbade her but she did not stop. He rebuked her but she did not give up her habit. One night she began to slander the Prophet [. . .] and abuse him. So he took a dagger, placed it on her belly, pressed it, and killed her. A child who came between her legs was smeared with the blood that was there.

When the morning came, the Prophet [. . .] was informed about it. "He assembled the people and said: 'I adjure by Allah the man who has done this action and I adjure him by my right to him that he should stand up.'

Jumping over the necks of the people and trembling the man stood up. "He sat before the Prophet [. . .] and said: 'Apostle of Allah! I am her master; she used to abuse you and disparage you. I forbade her, but she did not stop, and I rebuked her, but she did not abandon her habit. I have two sons like pearls from her, and she was my companion. Last night she began to abuse and disparage you. So I took a dagger, put it on her belly and pressed it till I killed her.'

"Thereupon the Prophet [. . .] said: 'Oh be witness, no retaliation is payable for her blood'" (Abu-Dawud Book 38, Number 4348).
. . . destroying trees:
"It is narrated on the authority of 'Abdullah that the Messenger of Allah . . . ordered the date-palms of Banu Nadir to be burnt and cut. These palms were at Buwaira. Qutaibah and Ibn Rumh in their versions of the tradition have added: 'So Allah, the Glorious and Exalted, revealed the verse: "Whatever trees you have cut down or left standing on their trunks, it was with the permission of Allah so that He may disgrace the evil-doers"'" (Muslim Book 19, Number 4324).
A. Hussien continues with Muhammad allowing those he'd conquered to "Go your way, for you are free," Which, of course, does nothing to negate his beheading 600-900 who had surrendered to him [or the plethora of verses commanding blood].  Then . . .
"Those are the people who tortured him, insulted him, tried to assasinate him, chased him out of Mecca, and caused the killing of many of his followers, would you do the same thing if you were in his place?"
Would I slaughter, rape, and enslave over insults? No. And if my greed, bloodlust, and just-lust led me to war against my neighbors, I would NOT claim victim status and blame them for resisting. A problem with your relations at Mecca? Fine. Keep it all in the family. But expanding your "revelations" to include offensive warfare against all non-Muslims who refuse the "invitation" to convert or submit is evil.
"Yes I know the Doctrine of Abrogation, but would you please provide some of these passages?"
You're an expert. You know that 9:5 abrogates all the former, more peaceful verses that contradict it.

Here's Muhammad admitting that he changed his story to suit his immediate goals:
"The Prophet said, `If I take an oath and later find something else better than that, then I do what is better and expiate my oath'" (Bukhari Volume 7, Book 67, Number 427).

"Whatever communications We abrogate or cause to be forgotten, We bring one better than it or like it. Do you not know that Allah has power over all things" (Qur'an 2:106)?
Hussien continues:
"Once again, read the verses before and after the ninth verse and you'll find the answer."
Fifth verse. And no, I'm not taking the verse "out-of-context." (Remember, I asked you to save time by refraining from trying the Top Ten Ways to Trick Ignorant and Gullible Non-Muslims into Thinking that "'Islam" Means 'Peace.'")
"Honestly, I still haven't developed a complete opinion on that matter yet. As there're a lot of debates going on right now on the issue of Jihad and its provisions. So I really can't give an answer to that question."
That's more honest than most Muslim apologists will admit. I commend you.
"Nope, because none of that happened" [in response to my asking, "Is it Muhammad's genocide or his pedophilia that scream out "prophet of god!" to you?"].
Except when it did.
"who were those with the most enmity to the Prophet? The non-believers is not it?"
Because he was raping, enslaving, and decapitating them.
"why history never tells us that the non-believers denounced the Prophet's mirriage to Aisha?"
The Islamic texts brag about it, Muslims endorse it. Do you think the fact that Muslims kill non-Muslims for merely telling the truth about Muhammad might have something to do with an alleged lack of criticism?
"these marriages were common in that time and was not non-familiar."
Which is it, Hussien? First, you deny Muhammad raped little Aisha, then you're saying it was common. You can't have it both ways. Now you're justifying raping prepubescent nine-year-olds and claiming "the devil made me do it." What are you going to write next? Aisha liked it?
"These things come under the customs and traditions and not religion."
Being an expert on Islam, you must know that whatever Muhammad said and did -- or saw and allowed -- is "religion."
"Of course, our time is changed now, and this kind of marriages must not be allowed at all."
Thank you for stating that. Again, I commend you. What will you do to convince your coreligionists to remove that from shari'a?
"And what kind of genocide are you talking about?"
Killing non-Muslims on religious grounds. Since no society was Muslim before Islam warred against it, massive numbers of people of various ethnic backgrounds were murdered by Islam.
That's genocide.  Religiocide.