Exposing the errors of those who defend Islam by attacking others

Thursday, August 30

Exposing the errors of those who defend Islam by attacking others

From here.

I. matoko wrote:

"if the Qu'ran is a manual for violent jihaadism as poseur/buffoon Spencer asserts, why arent there a billion jihaadis? we all read the Qu'ran...we have to."
You pride yourself on your intellect, but that statement is not only dishonest, it is irrational.

Where does Spencer call Qur'an a "manual for violent jihaadism"?

Even if he does, what does that have to do with what the texts actually say? Nothing.

As you admit, "we all read the Qu'ran [sic]...we have to." Do you obey it?

Whether none, one, or a billion Muslims do this or that does not necessarily reflect accurately on the commands of Allah and the example of his apostle as recorded in Qur'an and Sunnah.

How do we know what Allah requires and what Mohammed said and did? We go to the texts.

In them Mahomet and his god demand (and sanctify) the conversion, subjugation and humiliation, and killing of non-Muslims to make the world Islam.

Do you have the wit and courage to admit that, matoko?

II. She replied:

errr....polytheists, pagans, are not "the people of the book" are they?

. . . i have no obligation to persecute other monotheists.
Red herring.

At least you admit your obligation to "persecute" "polytheists."

Speaking of not reading:
"Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued" (Qur'an 9:29).

"the Messenger of Allah . . . would say: 'Fight in the name of Allah and in the way of Allah. Fight against those who disbelieve in Allah. Make a holy war. . . . When you meet your enemies who are polytheists, invite them to three courses of action. . . . Invite them to (accept) Islam; if they respond to you, accept it from them and desist from fighting against them. . . . If they refuse to accept Islam, demand from them the Jizya. If they agree to pay, accept it from them and hold off your hands. If they refuse to pay the tax, seek Allah's help and fight them . . .'" (Muslim Book 19, Number 4294).

"They do blaspheme who say: Allah is one of three in a Trinity: for there is no god except One Allah. If they desist not from their word (of blasphemy), verily a grievous penalty will befall the blasphemers among them" (Qur'an 5:73).

"The Jews call 'Uzair a son of Allah, and the Christians call Christ the son of Allah. That is a saying from their mouth; (in this) they but imitate what the unbelievers of old used to say. Allah's curse be on them: how they are deluded away from the Truth" (Qur'an 9:30)!

"Those who reject (Truth), among the People of the Book and among the Polytheists, will be in Hell-Fire, to dwell therein (for aye). They are the worst of creatures" (Qur'an 98:6).
She continued:
"u believe in the same god as me."
I could never believe in a god that calls a lying, thieving, raping, murdering, enslaving, genocidal pedophile "a beautiful pattern of conduct" as does your Allah.

The name of the God of the Bible is YHWH. His Son claimed that name for Himself.

Arguing that using an Arabic noun meaning "god" makes all deities the same one indicates a severe lack of critical thinking.

Using your "logic," Allah = Astarte = Molech = Vishnu, since they all are gods.

Jesus said He is the Son of YHWH. Allah says that those who claim he has a son are blasphemers.

Jesus said, "Love your enemies." Mohammed said, "kill the unbelievers wherever you find them."

Jesus said that if anyone causes a child to sin it would be better for him to be drowned in the depths of the sea. Mohammed raped little Aisha, and Allah "ordained" it!

Jesus said that all must honor Him as they honor the Father and that He and His Father are One. Mohammed calls Him "accursed."

It is clear that only the ignorant and the liar can claim that Allah and Christ are the same god.
spencer has only one school of quranic exegesis, jihaadi-style.
The same way Mohammed interpreted it, which was just as his god commanded.
he interprets the Qu'ran exactly the way the jihaadis do...and also the way you do it seems.
What do the texts actually say?

Rather than address that, you engage in name-calling and advancing foolish, false equivalences and red herrings.

Apparently, your answer to my earlier question is, "No."
and....Issa is a prophet.
i dont believe he is the son of god
You have a false "Issa." The Christ of history is the Son of God, just as He said.
"...science do not really support it, that was all tacked on after his death."
Mohammed "tacked on" the nonsense contradicting Christ's own confession.

If you insist on arguing otherwise, prove it.

You can't, since we have not only the extant Scriptures Christ validated, but also His very words, those Mohammed claimed were twisted by Christians.

III. matoko continues:

2. all religions fostered science and reason when SCIENCE WAS NOT SEPERABLE FROM RELIGION
Which explains the numerous scientific breakthroughs of the Islamic world over the last thousand years.
Both religions KILLED heretics and persecuted scientists also . . . Both religions caused wars--EQUALLY
That is preposterous.

The essential distinction that you and others who advance this argument fail to make (or hope that others fail to make) is that such violence is forbidden by the Bible, while in Islam it is required:
"Allah's Apostle said: 'I have been ordered (by Allah) to fight against the people until they testify that none has the right to be worshipped but Allah and that Muhammad is Allah's Apostle . . . '" (Bukhari Volume 1, Book 2, Number 24).

"Fighting is prescribed for you, and ye dislike it. But it is possible that ye dislike a thing which is good for you, and that ye love a thing which is bad for you. But Allah knoweth, and ye know not" (Qur'an 2:216).

"Allah hath purchased of the believers their persons and their goods; for theirs (in return) is the garden (of Paradise): they fight in His cause, and slay and are slain: a promise binding on Him in truth, through the Law, the Gospel, and the Qur'an: and who is more faithful to his covenant than Allah?" (Qur'an 9:111).
She continues:
3. no religion supports science now
Not true. Real Science -- not atheistic naturalism -- is completely compatible with the teachings of the Bible.
ID theory is one perfectly elegant example of xianity REJECTING the scientific method.
Apparently you wrongly associate the Scientific Method with the Neo-Darwinian Creation Myth.

Since both Darwin and ID attempt to explain that which occurred beyond the purview of Science, neither can be truly scientific.

However, one theory is clearly much more strongly supported by actual science, common sense, and experience, and it's not the "Goo to Zoo to You" psychosis.
4. Spencer relies also on quranic exegesis . . . He has told me that he has no quranic exegesis of his own. So to prove Islam is inherently violent, he uses only one school...jihaadi school.
Again, what do the texts say? What does Allah require? What did Mohammed do and say?

If Spencer merely states what Allah has commanded and what Mohammed said and did -- and that is what the "jihaadi school" teaches and preaches -- then what does that say about the monster Allah and his false prophet?

You would serve yourself well to point out specific factual errors rather than engage in emotional ad hominem attacks and other logical fallacies and untruths.
the jihaadis interpret the Qu'an exactly the same way Spencer does.
That is not a valid method of proof.
They interpret it just as Mohammed did, yet you condemn them! Allah will not be pleased.
But!! any muslim that kills another muslim is NOT a follower of Islam (also in the Qu'ran). So most jihaadis are not muslims.
So, the ones who kill only non-Muslims, they're true Muslims? Thanks for clarifying that!

Of course, those jihadists would say that the Muslims they kill were not true Muslims, or were aiding the Infidel, or were necessarily unavoidable collateral damage.
and they [serial killers and mass murderers] have had the benefit of the judeo-xian sharia that permeates our culture and government
Yes, equality of rights and the preservation of essential Liberties are the moral equivalence of Islamic Shari'a.

Shameful.

The essential difference, again, is that unlike Christianity (the God of which commanded, "Love your enemies"), Islam requires murder to subdue the world under the tyranny of Allah.

Are you unable or unwilling to make that essential moral distinction?
lol. does that mean judeo-xian cultures are inherenty violent?
Human nature is inherently violent. Judeo-Christian cultures will tend to restrain that tendency rather than glorify it, as does Islam.

IV. Later . . .

How can someone who apparently endorses the absurdly unscientific proposition that Life arose apart from Life or Life's programs condemn anyone as "anti-scientific method"?

On the fall of Constantinople

"[...] the great church of Hagia Sophia was filled to capacity. Thousands of people were moving towards the church. Inside, Orthodox and Catholic priests were holding liturgy, the last Christian service after almost 1,000 years. People were singing hymns, others were openly crying, others were asking each other for forgiveness [...].

"Bands of Ottoman soldiers began now looting. Doors were broken, private homes were looted, their tenants were massacred. Shops in the city markets were looted. Monasteries and Convents were broken in. Their tenants were killed, nuns were raped; many, to avoid dishonor, killed themselves. Killing, raping, looting, burning, enslaving, went on and on [...].

"The great doors of Hagia Sophia were forced open, and crowds of angry soldiers came in and fell upon the unfortunate worshippers. Pillaging and killing in the holy place went on for hours. Similar was the fate of worshippers in most churches in the city [...].

"Thousands of civilians were enslaved, soldiers fought over young boys and young women [...] the invaders broke the heads of those women who resisted on the floor of the churches and they raped them dead. The famous icon of Apostole Loukas was totally destroyed.

"The sultan asked for the young sons of Duke Loukas Notaras. Their father refused and Mehmed was ready to take their heads. Notaras asked him to kill him after his sons so that he was sure that they were dead and not disgraced from the pervert sultan.

"And this is what happened."

Black Tuesday, The Last Day of the World, the twenty-ninth of May, anno Domini MCDLIII

On American Liberty

"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights; that among these are Life, Liberty, and the pursuit of Happiness; that to secure these rights, governments are instituted among men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed. That whenever any form of government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the right of the people to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new government, laying its foundation on such principles, and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their safety and happiness."

Thomas Jefferson, The Declaration of Independence, 1776

"The Christian religion, when divested of the rags in which they [the clergy] have enveloped it, and brought to the original purity and simplicity of it's benevolent institutor, is a religion of all others most friendly to liberty, science, and the freest expansion of the human mind."

Thomas Jefferson to Moses Robinson Washington, Mar. 23, 1801

"I have sworn upon the altar of God, eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man."

Thomas Jefferson to Dr. Benjamin Rush, September 23, 1800

The truth about Mahomet

"How dreadful are the curses which Mohammedanism lays on its votaries! Besides the fanatical frenzy, which is as dangerous in a man as hydrophobia in a dog, there is this fearful fatalistic apathy. The effects are apparent in many countries. Improvident habits, slovenly systems of agriculture, sluggish methods of commerce, and insecurity of property exist wherever the followers of the Prophet rule or live.

"A degraded sensualism deprives this life of its grace and refinement; the next of its dignity and sanctity. The fact that in Mohammedan law every woman must belong to some man as his absolute property -- either as a child, a wife, or a concubine -- must delay the final extinction of slavery until the faith of Islam has ceased to be a great power among men.

"Individual Moslems may show splendid qualities. Thousands become the brave and loyal soldiers of the Queen; all know how to die; but the influence of the religion paralyses the social development of those who follow it. No stronger retrograde force exists in the world. Far from being moribund, Mohammedanism is a militant and proselytizing faith. It has already spread throughout Central Africa, raising fearless warriors at every step; and were it not that Christianity is sheltered in the strong arms of science -- the science against which it had vainly struggled -- the civilisation of modern Europe might fall, as fell the civilisation of ancient Rome."

Winston Churchill, Churchill, Winston S. (1899), The River War, First edition, Vol. II, pp. 248-250

A war of twelve hundred years

"And he [Jesus] declared, that the enjoyment of felicity in the world hereafter, would be reward of the practice of benevolence here. His whole law was resolvable into the precept of love; peace on earth – good will toward man, was the early object of his mission; and the authoritative demonstration of the immortality of man, was that, which constituted the more than earthly tribute of glory to God in the highest [...] The first conquest of the religion of Jesus, was over the unsocial passions of his disciples. It elevated the standard of the human character in the scale of existence. [...] On the Christian system of morals, man is an immortal spirit, confined for a short space of time, in an earthly tabernacle. Kindness to his fellow mortals embraces the whole compass of his duties upon earth, and the whole promise of happiness to his spirit hereafter. THE ESSENCE OF THIS DOCTRINE IS, TO EXALT THE SPIRITUAL OVER THE BRUTAL PART OF HIS NATURE.

[...]

“In the seventh century of the Christian era, a wandering Arab of the lineage of Hagar [i.e., Muhammad], the Egyptian, combining the powers of transcendent genius, with the preternatural energy of a fanatic, and the fraudulent spirit of an impostor, proclaimed himself as a messenger from Heaven, and spread desolation and delusion over an extensive portion of the earth. Adopting from the sublime conception of the Mosaic law, the doctrine of one omnipotent God; he connected indissolubly with it, the audacious falsehood, that he was himself his prophet and apostle. Adopting from the new Revelation of Jesus, the faith and hope of immortal life, and of future retribution, he humbled it to the dust by adapting all the rewards and sanctions of his religion to the gratification of the sexual passion. He poisoned the sources of human felicity at the fountain, by degrading the condition of the female sex, and the allowance of polygamy; and he declared undistinguishing and exterminating war, as a part of his religion, against all the rest of mankind. THE ESSENCE OF HIS DOCTRINE WAS VIOLENCE AND LUST: TO EXALT THE BRUTAL OVER THE SPIRITUAL PART OF HUMAN NATURE

[...]

"Between these two religions, thus contrasted in their characters, a war of twelve hundred years has already raged. The war is yet flagrant. [...] While the merciless and dissolute dogmas of the false prophet shall furnish motives to human action, there can never be peace upon earth, and good will towards men.”

John Quincy Adams, Blunt, Joseph (1830),The American Annual Register for the Years 1827-8-9, pp. 268-269

Impossible Islamophobia

Nearly one and one-half millennia of slavery, rape, and slaughter in Allah's name ...

80% of American -- not Pakistani, not Saudi Arabian, not Iranian, but American -- mosques teach jihad/Islamic supremacism ...

Nearly twenty-seven thousand documented jihad attacks since 9/11 alone, and ...

Islam's "Ideal Man" Muhammad -- Allah's "beautiful pattern of conduct" for those who want to please it -- preached and practiced genocide, pedophilia, rape, slavery, torture, mutilation, anti-Semitism, theft, extortion, arson, wife-beating, polygyny, religious and gender apartheid, sedition, treason, deceit, and blasphemy and warned his devotees that "Allah made me do it, and you will too, or else!"

No, "Islamophobia" is impossible. Merely pointing out simple facts regarding a genocidal, malevolent, and totalitarian ideology is neither phobic nor intolerant. It is highly rational and moral.

We are in only the latest phase of an ancient and existential struggle, Allah's war against humanity.

Speaking the truth in love

Never surrender

"we shall prove ourselves once again able to defend our Island home, to ride out the storm of war, and to outlive the menace of tyranny, if necessary for years, if necessary alone [...].

"we shall not flag or fail. We shall go on to the end [...] we shall fight on the seas and oceans, we shall fight with growing confidence and growing strength in the air, we shall defend our Island, whatever the cost may be, we shall fight on the beaches, we shall fight on the landing grounds, we shall fight in the fields and in the streets, we shall fight in the hills; we shall never surrender [...]."

Winston Churchill to the House of Commons, June 4, 1940