Thursday, August 30, 2007

Exposing the errors of those who defend Islam by attacking others

From here.

I. matoko wrote:
"if the Qu'ran is a manual for violent jihaadism as poseur/buffoon Spencer asserts, why arent there a billion jihaadis? we all read the Qu'ran...we have to."
You pride yourself on your intellect, but that statement is not only dishonest, it is irrational.

Where does Spencer call Qur'an a "manual for violent jihaadism"?

Even if he does, what does that have to do with what the texts actually say? Nothing.

As you admit, "we all read the Qu'ran [sic]...we have to." Do you obey it?

Whether none, one, or a billion Muslims do this or that does not necessarily reflect accurately on the commands of Allah and the example of his apostle as recorded in Qur'an and Sunnah.

How do we know what Allah requires and what Mohammed said and did? We go to the texts.

In them Mahomet and his god demand (and sanctify) the conversion, subjugation and humiliation, and killing of non-Muslims to make the world Islam.

Do you have the wit and courage to admit that, matoko?
II. She replied:
errr....polytheists, pagans, are not "the people of the book" are they?

. . . i have no obligation to persecute other monotheists.
Red herring.

At least you admit your obligation to "persecute" "polytheists."

Speaking of not reading:
"Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued" (Qur'an 9:29).

"the Messenger of Allah . . . would say: 'Fight in the name of Allah and in the way of Allah. Fight against those who disbelieve in Allah. Make a holy war. . . . When you meet your enemies who are polytheists, invite them to three courses of action. . . . Invite them to (accept) Islam; if they respond to you, accept it from them and desist from fighting against them. . . . If they refuse to accept Islam, demand from them the Jizya. If they agree to pay, accept it from them and hold off your hands. If they refuse to pay the tax, seek Allah's help and fight them . . .'" (Muslim Book 19, Number 4294).

"They do blaspheme who say: Allah is one of three in a Trinity: for there is no god except One Allah. If they desist not from their word (of blasphemy), verily a grievous penalty will befall the blasphemers among them" (Qur'an 5:73).

"The Jews call 'Uzair a son of Allah, and the Christians call Christ the son of Allah. That is a saying from their mouth; (in this) they but imitate what the unbelievers of old used to say. Allah's curse be on them: how they are deluded away from the Truth" (Qur'an 9:30)!

"Those who reject (Truth), among the People of the Book and among the Polytheists, will be in Hell-Fire, to dwell therein (for aye). They are the worst of creatures" (Qur'an 98:6).
She continued:
"u believe in the same god as me."
I could never believe in a god that calls a lying, thieving, raping, murdering, enslaving, genocidal pedophile "a beautiful pattern of conduct" as does your Allah.

The name of the God of the Bible is YHWH. His Son claimed that name for Himself.

Arguing that using an Arabic noun meaning "god" makes all deities the same one indicates a severe lack of critical thinking.

Using your "logic," Allah = Astarte = Molech = Vishnu, since they all are gods.

Jesus said He is the Son of YHWH. Allah says that those who claim he has a son are blasphemers.

Jesus said, "Love your enemies." Mohammed said, "kill the unbelievers wherever you find them."

Jesus said that if anyone causes a child to sin it would be better for him to be drowned in the depths of the sea. Mohammed raped little Aisha, and Allah "ordained" it!

Jesus said that all must honor Him as they honor the Father and that He and His Father are One. Mohammed calls Him "accursed."

It is clear that only the ignorant and the liar can claim that Allah and Christ are the same god.
spencer has only one school of quranic exegesis, jihaadi-style.
The same way Mohammed interpreted it, which was just as his god commanded.
he interprets the Qu'ran exactly the way the jihaadis do...and also the way you do it seems.
What do the texts actually say?

Rather than address that, you engage in name-calling and advancing foolish, false equivalences and red herrings.

Apparently, your answer to my earlier question is, "No."
and....Issa is a prophet.
i dont believe he is the son of god
You have a false "Issa." The Christ of history is the Son of God, just as He said.
" do not really support it, that was all tacked on after his death."
Mohammed "tacked on" the nonsense contradicting Christ's own confession.

If you insist on arguing otherwise, prove it.

You can't, since we have not only the extant Scriptures Christ validated, but also His very words, those Mohammed claimed were twisted by Christians.
III. matoko continues:
2. all religions fostered science and reason when SCIENCE WAS NOT SEPERABLE FROM RELIGION
Which explains the numerous scientific breakthroughs of the Islamic world over the last thousand years.
Both religions KILLED heretics and persecuted scientists also . . . Both religions caused wars--EQUALLY
That is preposterous.

The essential distinction that you and others who advance this argument fail to make (or hope that others fail to make) is that such violence is forbidden by the Bible, while in Islam it is required:
"Allah's Apostle said: 'I have been ordered (by Allah) to fight against the people until they testify that none has the right to be worshipped but Allah and that Muhammad is Allah's Apostle . . . '" (Bukhari Volume 1, Book 2, Number 24).

"Fighting is prescribed for you, and ye dislike it. But it is possible that ye dislike a thing which is good for you, and that ye love a thing which is bad for you. But Allah knoweth, and ye know not" (Qur'an 2:216).

"Allah hath purchased of the believers their persons and their goods; for theirs (in return) is the garden (of Paradise): they fight in His cause, and slay and are slain: a promise binding on Him in truth, through the Law, the Gospel, and the Qur'an: and who is more faithful to his covenant than Allah?" (Qur'an 9:111).
She continues:
3. no religion supports science now
Not true. Real Science -- not atheistic naturalism -- is completely compatible with the teachings of the Bible.
ID theory is one perfectly elegant example of xianity REJECTING the scientific method.
Apparently you wrongly associate the Scientific Method with the Neo-Darwinian Creation Myth.

Since both Darwin and ID attempt to explain that which occurred beyond the purview of Science, neither can be truly scientific.

However, one theory is clearly much more strongly supported by actual science, common sense, and experience, and it's not the "Goo to Zoo to You" psychosis.
4. Spencer relies also on quranic exegesis . . . He has told me that he has no quranic exegesis of his own. So to prove Islam is inherently violent, he uses only one school...jihaadi school.
Again, what do the texts say? What does Allah require? What did Mohammed do and say?

If Spencer merely states what Allah has commanded and what Mohammed said and did -- and that is what the "jihaadi school" teaches and preaches -- then what does that say about the monster Allah and his false prophet?

You would serve yourself well to point out specific factual errors rather than engage in emotional ad hominem attacks and other logical fallacies and untruths.
the jihaadis interpret the Qu'an exactly the same way Spencer does.
That is not a valid method of proof.
They interpret it just as Mohammed did, yet you condemn them! Allah will not be pleased.
But!! any muslim that kills another muslim is NOT a follower of Islam (also in the Qu'ran). So most jihaadis are not muslims.
So, the ones who kill only non-Muslims, they're true Muslims? Thanks for clarifying that!

Of course, those jihadists would say that the Muslims they kill were not true Muslims, or were aiding the Infidel, or were necessarily unavoidable collateral damage.
and they [serial killers and mass murderers] have had the benefit of the judeo-xian sharia that permeates our culture and government
Yes, equality of rights and the preservation of essential Liberties are the moral equivalence of Islamic Shari'a.


The essential difference, again, is that unlike Christianity (the God of which commanded, "Love your enemies"), Islam requires murder to subdue the world under the tyranny of Allah.

Are you unable or unwilling to make that essential moral distinction?
lol. does that mean judeo-xian cultures are inherenty violent?
Human nature is inherently violent. Judeo-Christian cultures will tend to restrain that tendency rather than glorify it, as does Islam.
IV. Later . . .
How can someone who apparently endorses the absurdly unscientific proposition that Life arose apart from Life or Life's programs condemn anyone as "anti-scientific method"?