From here:
I sent the following to the Saudi embassy and Cc'd it to President Bush, Vice-President Cheney, Rush, Hannity, Glenn Beck, and Hugh Hewitt.
This is the reason there will be no peace between Islam and Israel. It is an infidel state on land once controlled by Allah, and once Allah's, always Allah's:Sirs,
No decent, rational human being can consider the evil cited below to be the will of a god.
Inexplicably, the President of the United States of America -- a man who claims for himself the title "Christian" -- appeases and calls "ally" some of those who consider such excrement to be "divine." He defends their depravity, even equating such vile filth with the Ten Commandments and the Sermon on the Mount in an Inaugural Address!
(Jefferson and Adams -- two men whose Islamic counterparts were much more honest about their "sacred" right to Infidel blood than are today's Muslim leaders -- would be disgusted to see such craven dishonesty from the leader of the nation they helped create.)
No less shamefully, those pretend defenders of Western Civilization -- lions behind microphones except when it comes to telling the truth about Qur'an and Sunnah -- do the same.
This is the will of Allah and the example of Mohammed. This is what you defend:"...fight and slay the Pagans wherever ye find them . . . " (Qur'an 9:5).
"Fight in the name of Allah and in the way of Allah. Fight against those who disbelieve in Allah. Make a holy war . . . When you meet your enemies who are polytheists, invite them to three courses of action . . . Invite them to (accept) Islam . . . If they refuse to accept Islam, demand from them the Jizya . . . If they refuse to pay the tax, seek Allah's help and fight them . . . " (Muslim Book 019, Number 4294).
"Fight those who believe not in Allah . . . nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued" (Qur'an 9:29).
"Allah's Apostle said: 'I have been ordered (by Allah) to fight against the people until they testify that none has the right to be worshipped but Allah and that Muhammad is Allah's Apostle . . . '" (Bukhari Volume 1, Book 2, Number 24).
"Allah's Apostle said, 'I have been made victorious with terror. The treasures of the world were brought to me and put in my hand'" (Bukhari Volume 4, Book 52, Number 220).
"My mother came to me while I was being swung on a swing between two branches and got me down. My nurse took over and wiped my face with some water and started leading me. When I was at the door she stopped so I could catch my breath. I was brought in while Muhammad was sitting on a bed in our house. My mother made me sit on his lap. The other men and women got up and left. The Prophet consummated his marriage with me in my house when I was nine years old" (Tabari 9:131).
"Allah's Apostle told Aisha [his six-year-old bride and nine-year-old sexual "partner"], 'You were shown to me twice in my dreams. I beheld a man or angel carrying you in a silken cloth. He said to me, "She is yours, so uncover her." And behold, it was you. I would then say to myself, "If this is from Allah, then it must happen"'" (Bukhari Volume 9, Book 87, Number 139-140).
"War is deceit" (Bukhari Volume 4, Book 52, Number 268).
One who likes to indulge in logical fallacies responded. Here's my answer:
That's impressive, Norman Blitzer.Next,
A false moral equivalence between YHWH and Allah easily refutable by anyone who can read, a tu quoque argument, and an appeal to authority contradicting your previous point -- all in one brief post.
The passages from Qur'an and Sunnah I cited make "divine" pedophilia, lying, terrorism, and offensive warfare against all non-Muslims who refuse to submit to the tyranny of Allah.
The Biblical passages you cite do not.
The first was a limited, one-time command in the context of Israel's on-going wars under their first king against a nation that had harmed it, not a command for offensive warfare to make the world Hebrew.
The second, the punishment for Hebrews under the Mosaic Covenant, not a command for offensive warfare to make the world Israel.
The third, protections for a daughter in a world in which slavery was commonplace. No commands to enslave Gentiles nor for offensive warfare to make the world Hebrew.
The last, more accommodations reflecting the ubiquitous nature of slavery, not commands to enslave non-Hebrews nor for offensive warfare to make the world Hebrew here, either.
As for Rudy, which is it? Is Islam "just as bad" and Judaism, or is it a "great religion"? Or are you saying that Judaism is also a great religion?
Norman,Finally,"All you're doing is splitting hairs and defending your god."It's called "reading."
That and a little intellectual integrity will go a long way."Whether an evil act is committed once or several times; against one person or many, it's still evil."A Divine judgment may offend your amoral sensibilities, and certainly it is terrifying, but that doesn't justify calling it "evil."
Commanding an entire religion to kill all who refuse to convert or submit to Allah is evil on a scale incomprehensible. That you are unable to admit that says a lot about you."As for your ridiculous explanations of slavery"Perhaps re-reading for comprehension would help.
I was not "explaining" nor justifying slavery (neither were the Biblical texts you cited); I was pointing out that what you misrepresent as commands to enslave (or as "God's rules, not man's") were in fact concessions made to corrupt people in a sin-sick world.
This same principle is evident in allowing divorce under certain circumstances. Though YHWH says He hates the practice, yet He set boundaries on it because of the "hardness of men's hearts."
Neglecting the numerous New Testament passages regarding Liberty and emancipation calls into question your willingness or ability to tell the truth."Your God's "protection" for a daughter amounted to making her a sex slave."Your historical illiteracy is showing. Why do you think the commands were given? Because otherwise ordinary, decent people would refrain from enslaving their children, or because without such limitations even worse would occur against them?
By the way, I've checked three different translations of the Exodus 21 passage. None of them render it the way you do.
Here's the way the ESV says it:"When a man sells his daughter as a slave, she shall not go out as the male slaves do. If she does not please her master, who has designated her for himself, then he shall let her be redeemed. He shall have no right to sell her to a foreign people, since he has broken faith with her.Without such restrictions, what do you suppose happened to a female sold into slavery?
"If he designates her for his son, he shall deal with her as with a daughter. If he takes another wife to himself, he shall not diminish her food, her clothing, or her marital rights.
"And if he does not do these three things for her, she shall go out for nothing, without payment of money.""Morally speaking, there's little difference between the OT and the Koran.""Little difference" is better than, "no better," I suppose. It looks like we're making progress! :)
So, in your opinion, limitations on the evil of an institution foundational to the ancient world is little different than universal, open-ended commands to genocide."Maybe Christopher Hitchens is on to something..."Yes, if you consider intellectual dishonesty, moral inversion, and logical fallacies fashionable.
An addendum,"I've never ever expressed any anti-Semitic sentiments"In response to a religion sworn to the enslavement or death of Israel you condemn -- Israel's God."if someone is going to post negative excerpts from the Koran then be prepared to see similar excerpts from the Bible posted."A logical fallacy in first place, and a false moral equivalence in the second."There's no excuse for God to order the killing of children and infants or to uphold the institution of slavery. It's still evil."The command to Israel to wipe out certain Canaanites was a Divine judgment limited to only that time, place, and target. Yes, it was brutal and terrible, but it is in no way comparable to the universal, open-ended commands to wage offensive warfare against all non-Muslims who refuse to submit to Allah.
How many Hebrews are going around slaughtering Canaanites?
As for slavery, surely a good pagan like you also hates Classical Greece and Rome, for did they not also practice it?
What ancient civilization did not?
I encourage *you* to take your own advice and actually read the Old Testament. The commands regarding slavery were not exhortations to enslave, they were limits on what could be done within that ubiquitous, global institution.
It wasn't until over three millennia after Moses that a significant movement to abolish slavery finally took hold.
Who was behind that? Christians.
You refuse to address the numerous New Testament passages speaking of Liberty and encouraging slaves to gain their freedom peacefully, if possible because doing so would make your libelous, vomitous mass a little harder to issue."'Yes, if you consider intellectual dishonesty, moral inversion, and logical fallacies fashionable.' Sounds like something you did."Impressive retort. Isn't that the Comment Board equivalent of "I know you are, but what am I?"?
Telling the truth will do more to enhance your credibility than perseverating error."'Ignore efforts to make peace between the Israelis and the Palestinians? Not to create a Palestinian state? Seems to me most people here rather see continuing violence.'We see the violence continuing, but not because we want it. It's because Islam's god and prophet command it.
"Thank you for your insightful post 13 Martyrs."
"In other words it reaks of man's attempt to structure man's evil qualities that one can have if one chooses not to attempt the path of good."That is a perceptive analysis, ArloRay.
In the early years of Mohammed's career as a prophet of Allah, his revelations were of a cooperative and respectful nature.
Later, as he grew in military and political might, the revelations concerning non-Muslims evolved into allowing war in self-defense, then demanding war in self-defense, and then finally requiring offensive warfare against all mankind to establish the tyranny of Allah.
Couple this with the fact that many of Mohammed's other later revelations justified his most base, vile impulses. He received from Allah statements that justified his murder, thievery, polygamy, even his raping of little Aisha from the time she was nine until his death.
And Allah calls Mohammed a "beautiful pattern of conduct" for all who want to please him, making the violation of every commandment under the sun "divine" in Mohammed."What was it about Christians that gave Muslims the idea that they could achieve that spread of domination in the first place?"One God says, "Love your enemies." The other says, "kill the unbelievers wherever you find them."
Jewish, Christian, Buddhist, Zoroastrian, and other non-Muslims failed to halt the expansion of Islam in ancient times; I suppose they didn't have the means to communicate and coordinate, and they didn't know what they were facing.
Today, we have no excuse.