Persevering with the facts

Tuesday, February 28

Persevering with the facts

From EO:

Boonton,

There's no jest at all. If millions of Muslims believe that terrorism against non-Muslims (and I presume those they consider hetrodox Muslims too) is good and is also ordered by God, then given how easy it is to pull off terrorism (see my story about propane tanks earlier) then there is a huge shortage of terrorism....

Allah orders the killing, not YHWH.

Chris addressed your "arguments" above very well. I will add a few of my thoughts.

I'm not sure what western military power has been intimidated by the protests over the cartoons Did Denmark have thousands of troops in Iran that were driven out by cartoon protestors that I didn't hear about?

More obfuscation.

Western "leaders" denounced the cartoons. Western editors have been fired and major media have refused to print or air the cartoons (out of "respect" for Islam).

A lot of it came from the simple fact that many of those countries have no freedom of speech. Pakistan, for example, does not generally permit protests against the gov't so the protests against the cartoon became anti-government protests & soon the cartoons were being used as a pretext for protesting the gov't.

Yes, all those oppressed European Muslims calling for death and terrorism over cartoons.

According to you Jihad (meaning violence) against non-believers is an obvious requirement of Islamic texts yet you'll also excuse the lack of violence as due to ignorance. Yet if it's so obvious how could serious Muslims be ignorant of it?

Corrections to your comment above:
1. According to Allah and his (false) prophet.

2. Due to a number of factors, not just ignorance of the Qur'an and Hadith.

3. Obvious when examining the texts, which is what I wrote.

Is your persistent misrepresentation of my comments intentional or unavoidable?

Ignorance of the Koran is a bit like attributing ignorance of Moses to Jews or ignorance of Christ to Christians.

No, it is comparable to Christian ignorance of the Bible, a comparison I've made before.

While Bin Laden has called for everyone to convert to Islam, I don't think he thought that would be the result of 9/11.

He "misunderestimated" our president and our people. I don't think he counted on America defending itself as vigorously as it has so far.

Rather I think he and many like him are waging a puritanical war within Islam that is just as likely to target other Muslims as Western targets.

That is true.

I didn't say Islam is peaceful, harmless etc. All religions are dangerous to one degree or another and only acceptance of the basic tenants of liberalism (not Liberalism as Sean Hannity would define it...but liberalism being acceptance of individual freedom, free speech, free religion etc.

Tu quoque. Christianity and Judaism are not inherently violent, since the Bible does not contain universal commands to fight against, subdue and humiliate, and kill "unbelievers." Islam does.

In fact it does mean whatever they want it to mean. When we discussed Sura 9, for example, I delved into the varous commentaries and at least one of the more prominant ones viewed it as orders in the context of an upcoming historical battle.

You "delved into" commentaries in forty-five minutes? That's impressive!

Maududi's commentary does note there was a historical battle upcoming. It was upcoming because Allah was declaring war against the non-Muslim world.

From what I've read about jihad it generally means 'struggle'. It can and sometimes does mean a military struggle but more often means a spirtual struggle. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jihad does a good job contrasting the term with crusade which is often used by Christians in a nonviolent peaceful context but often read only as a struggle by the sword by Muslim commentators.

Jihad has historically meant war. Ask Mohammed (see the texts I provided for you in my post above). It is commanded by Allah and his apostle throughout Qur'an and Hadith.

"Crusade" is not found in the Bible. When it was first used for actual warfare, it was in response to centuries of Jihad.

Anyway there seems to be a diverse array of opinions by Muslims as to when (if ever) the type of Jihad we are talking about is required

The only opinion on Islam that matters in the end is Allah's.

If this view was as obvious as you say it is it would be pretty stunning that Muslim scholars could publish in such complete ignorance of it.

Traditional Muslim scholars do not publish in ignorance of Jihad. They just don't advertise to Western infidels receiving "Religion of Peace" propaganda.

Neither is it recognized in Christianity or Judism. Until about one and three quarters thousand years after Christ the idea that Church and state could or should be separate would have struck many as bizaar, probably dangerous and probably downright evil.

That is false. Christ taught of Two Kingdoms, the civil authority on one hand, God's spiritual realm on the other. Christ commands His people to "give to Caesar what is Caesar's, and give to God what is God's." The New Testament also commands Christians to obey the God-ordained authorities (unless they require us to sin).

BTW....anyone else here notice the change in tone when the subject is Islam? It's like all in the sudden they pull out the ACLU membership cards and people like Chris start talking about "separation of Church and state". When the subject isn't Islam you'd just as likely find the phrase "separation of Church and state" joined with the word "myth" or "falsehood" on many political evangelical sites.

Whether or not some Christians are inconsistent (I've only seen Chris be consistent--you're attacking him unfairly, but that's typical of your "argumentation"), the "separation of Church and State" is completely appropriate when discussing both Islam and Christianity. The SoCaS was a phrase used by Jefferson assuring Christians that the Church would be protected from the State. If Islam were to rule, that protection would be gone just when Christians would need it the most.

You're making it rather easy. You're trying to tell me that most Muslims are just waiting for the right time to start blowing us all up.

That is another misrepresentation of Chris's position, but then accuracy (or is it integrity?) is not one of your strengths.

On the fall of Constantinople

"[...] the great church of Hagia Sophia was filled to capacity. Thousands of people were moving towards the church. Inside, Orthodox and Catholic priests were holding liturgy, the last Christian service after almost 1,000 years. People were singing hymns, others were openly crying, others were asking each other for forgiveness [...].

"Bands of Ottoman soldiers began now looting. Doors were broken, private homes were looted, their tenants were massacred. Shops in the city markets were looted. Monasteries and Convents were broken in. Their tenants were killed, nuns were raped; many, to avoid dishonor, killed themselves. Killing, raping, looting, burning, enslaving, went on and on [...].

"The great doors of Hagia Sophia were forced open, and crowds of angry soldiers came in and fell upon the unfortunate worshippers. Pillaging and killing in the holy place went on for hours. Similar was the fate of worshippers in most churches in the city [...].

"Thousands of civilians were enslaved, soldiers fought over young boys and young women [...] the invaders broke the heads of those women who resisted on the floor of the churches and they raped them dead. The famous icon of Apostole Loukas was totally destroyed.

"The sultan asked for the young sons of Duke Loukas Notaras. Their father refused and Mehmed was ready to take their heads. Notaras asked him to kill him after his sons so that he was sure that they were dead and not disgraced from the pervert sultan.

"And this is what happened."

Black Tuesday, The Last Day of the World, the twenty-ninth of May, anno Domini MCDLIII

On American Liberty

"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights; that among these are Life, Liberty, and the pursuit of Happiness; that to secure these rights, governments are instituted among men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed. That whenever any form of government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the right of the people to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new government, laying its foundation on such principles, and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their safety and happiness."

Thomas Jefferson, The Declaration of Independence, 1776

"The Christian religion, when divested of the rags in which they [the clergy] have enveloped it, and brought to the original purity and simplicity of it's benevolent institutor, is a religion of all others most friendly to liberty, science, and the freest expansion of the human mind."

Thomas Jefferson to Moses Robinson Washington, Mar. 23, 1801

"I have sworn upon the altar of God, eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man."

Thomas Jefferson to Dr. Benjamin Rush, September 23, 1800

The truth about Mahomet

"How dreadful are the curses which Mohammedanism lays on its votaries! Besides the fanatical frenzy, which is as dangerous in a man as hydrophobia in a dog, there is this fearful fatalistic apathy. The effects are apparent in many countries. Improvident habits, slovenly systems of agriculture, sluggish methods of commerce, and insecurity of property exist wherever the followers of the Prophet rule or live.

"A degraded sensualism deprives this life of its grace and refinement; the next of its dignity and sanctity. The fact that in Mohammedan law every woman must belong to some man as his absolute property -- either as a child, a wife, or a concubine -- must delay the final extinction of slavery until the faith of Islam has ceased to be a great power among men.

"Individual Moslems may show splendid qualities. Thousands become the brave and loyal soldiers of the Queen; all know how to die; but the influence of the religion paralyses the social development of those who follow it. No stronger retrograde force exists in the world. Far from being moribund, Mohammedanism is a militant and proselytizing faith. It has already spread throughout Central Africa, raising fearless warriors at every step; and were it not that Christianity is sheltered in the strong arms of science -- the science against which it had vainly struggled -- the civilisation of modern Europe might fall, as fell the civilisation of ancient Rome."

Winston Churchill, Churchill, Winston S. (1899), The River War, First edition, Vol. II, pp. 248-250

A war of twelve hundred years

"And he [Jesus] declared, that the enjoyment of felicity in the world hereafter, would be reward of the practice of benevolence here. His whole law was resolvable into the precept of love; peace on earth – good will toward man, was the early object of his mission; and the authoritative demonstration of the immortality of man, was that, which constituted the more than earthly tribute of glory to God in the highest [...] The first conquest of the religion of Jesus, was over the unsocial passions of his disciples. It elevated the standard of the human character in the scale of existence. [...] On the Christian system of morals, man is an immortal spirit, confined for a short space of time, in an earthly tabernacle. Kindness to his fellow mortals embraces the whole compass of his duties upon earth, and the whole promise of happiness to his spirit hereafter. THE ESSENCE OF THIS DOCTRINE IS, TO EXALT THE SPIRITUAL OVER THE BRUTAL PART OF HIS NATURE.

[...]

“In the seventh century of the Christian era, a wandering Arab of the lineage of Hagar [i.e., Muhammad], the Egyptian, combining the powers of transcendent genius, with the preternatural energy of a fanatic, and the fraudulent spirit of an impostor, proclaimed himself as a messenger from Heaven, and spread desolation and delusion over an extensive portion of the earth. Adopting from the sublime conception of the Mosaic law, the doctrine of one omnipotent God; he connected indissolubly with it, the audacious falsehood, that he was himself his prophet and apostle. Adopting from the new Revelation of Jesus, the faith and hope of immortal life, and of future retribution, he humbled it to the dust by adapting all the rewards and sanctions of his religion to the gratification of the sexual passion. He poisoned the sources of human felicity at the fountain, by degrading the condition of the female sex, and the allowance of polygamy; and he declared undistinguishing and exterminating war, as a part of his religion, against all the rest of mankind. THE ESSENCE OF HIS DOCTRINE WAS VIOLENCE AND LUST: TO EXALT THE BRUTAL OVER THE SPIRITUAL PART OF HUMAN NATURE

[...]

"Between these two religions, thus contrasted in their characters, a war of twelve hundred years has already raged. The war is yet flagrant. [...] While the merciless and dissolute dogmas of the false prophet shall furnish motives to human action, there can never be peace upon earth, and good will towards men.”

John Quincy Adams, Blunt, Joseph (1830),The American Annual Register for the Years 1827-8-9, pp. 268-269

Impossible Islamophobia

Nearly one and one-half millennia of slavery, rape, and slaughter in Allah's name ...

80% of American -- not Pakistani, not Saudi Arabian, not Iranian, but American -- mosques teach jihad/Islamic supremacism ...

Nearly twenty-seven thousand documented jihad attacks since 9/11 alone, and ...

Islam's "Ideal Man" Muhammad -- Allah's "beautiful pattern of conduct" for those who want to please it -- preached and practiced genocide, pedophilia, rape, slavery, torture, mutilation, anti-Semitism, theft, extortion, arson, wife-beating, polygyny, religious and gender apartheid, sedition, treason, deceit, and blasphemy and warned his devotees that "Allah made me do it, and you will too, or else!"

No, "Islamophobia" is impossible. Merely pointing out simple facts regarding a genocidal, malevolent, and totalitarian ideology is neither phobic nor intolerant. It is highly rational and moral.

We are in only the latest phase of an ancient and existential struggle, Allah's war against humanity.

Speaking the truth in love

Never surrender

"we shall prove ourselves once again able to defend our Island home, to ride out the storm of war, and to outlive the menace of tyranny, if necessary for years, if necessary alone [...].

"we shall not flag or fail. We shall go on to the end [...] we shall fight on the seas and oceans, we shall fight with growing confidence and growing strength in the air, we shall defend our Island, whatever the cost may be, we shall fight on the beaches, we shall fight on the landing grounds, we shall fight in the fields and in the streets, we shall fight in the hills; we shall never surrender [...]."

Winston Churchill to the House of Commons, June 4, 1940