Saturday, July 01, 2006

More on the Founding and Romans 13

More from this discussion:
You could probably find better translations without too much effort....
The translation I used in my post above is God's Word to the Nations. I have thirty-two other translations (eighteen of them in English). Which would you prefer?
The 1599 or similar Geneva Bible is superior to the KJV....
The King James Version was put together from the Textus Receptus; there are other more ancient and reliable manuscripts available to us today.
Do you use "Caesar's money"? Is "your church" a 501-c(3) corporation? If so - Caesar IS THAT CHURCH's CREATOR!!!
This is patently false. Christ is the Creator of the Church.

Our local congregation obeys the law of the land as God commands.
This is already getting long.
I appreciate your taking the time to write.
...yes, I DO keep it. Read the Torah parts about it - see how often He said "forever", "throughout your generations", and otherwise made it clear He NEVER changed it.
God did not change the Sabbath, He only revealed its fuller meaning which is, of course, in Christ and received by faith:
For we also have had the gospel preached to us, just as they did; but the message they heard was of no value to them, because those who heard did not combine it with faith. Now we who have believed enter that rest....

It still remains that some will enter that rest, and those who formerly had the gospel preached to them did not go in, because of their disobedience. Therefore God again set a certain day, calling it Today, when a long time later he spoke through David, as was said before: 'Today, if you hear his voice, do not harden your hearts.' For if Joshua had given them rest, God would not have spoken later about another day. There remains, then, a Sabbath-rest for the people of God; for anyone who enters God's rest also rests from his own work, just as God did from his. Let us, therefore, make every effort to enter that rest, so that no one will fall by following their example of disobedience (Hebrews 4, NIV).
Continuing with your comments...
Constantine and the Sun-god-day types did later, but Yeshua ALWAYS kept the Sabbath.
No, the Apostles make clear that the first Christians (first century, not fourth) began worshiping on Sunday, the first day of the week, in celebration and remembrance of Christ's resurrection from the dead.

(This keeping of the Sabbath on Sunday, the first day of the week, also calls to mind the new life we have in Christ, since Resurrection Sunday was, in a sense, the eighth day of Creation and the first day of the new one. Which is also related to the historical use of the octagon in the building of many churches; baptismal fonts are often octagonal, since in Baptism God gives us the new birth, making us a new creation).

Finally, the Apostle Paul makes clear that no one should be judged regarding Sabbath days and other festivals: “Therefore, let no one judge you because of what you eat or drink or about the observance of annual holy days, New Moon Festivals, or weekly worship days.”
Keeping His commandments is NOT a burden (He said so - read Deut 30, esp. v 11-14; Deut. 30:15 is one of my very favorites) and one does NOT have to be legalistic about it.
How do you perform the daily sacrifices in the Temple? Have you stoned any children for disobedience? Killed a Canaanite or kept a woman as a spoil of war lately? Should we even bring up the Ten Commandments?

My point is, you do not keep all of the Old Testament laws.

Following the ceremonial laws of the Old Testament (and the civil laws of Ancient Israel) is no longer necessary since, as indicated in the New Testament, those requirements were a foreshadowing of the Messiah to come. Jesus is the reality.

Undoubtedly, understanding the festivals and participating in their symbolism can be edifying, since their purpose was to teach of Christ.
Another related item - Yeshua fulfilled the Spring Feasts PERFECTLY on His first coming. I think it is VERY clear that He will fulfill the Fall Feasts this next time.
Jesus did everything perfectly the first time. The only promise left to be fulfilled is His return.
(Rhetorical, of course - but remember that people who had been PRACTICING the Pesach for a thousand years still MISSED the Lamb even when it was "fulfilled in their sight". It truly IS important to be "teachable".)
Your "teachability" would have made no difference if you had been there.

You're waiting for this seven years of peace, and for that shofar to blow, but you ought to take into view the entire testimony of Scripture: Christ came once to pay for sins, and He will come again to bring salvation to those who are waiting for Him.

No one but the Father knows when the Last Day will be. Significantly, the Apostles expected Christ's return in their lifetimes, so all that needs to be fulfilled before He returns has been done.
Your posts tend (to me) to suggest an "OT is done away with” mentality.
The Old Testament is the Word of Christ. As Jesus taught, the Law and the Prophets all testify of Him, and the Scripture cannot be broken.

Perhaps you approach the Old Testament ceremonial law in a way that God does not intend for His Church.
...our leaders took an OATH to "preserve, protect, and defend" it (which oath has clearly been VIOLATED, just as the indictments of King George III in the Declaration identify -- BTW, another good answer to Romans 13) -- men who honor God did 'participate'.
It is curious that you need any sort of “answer” at all to the Word of God.

I suppose this means that you couldn't find any sort of Scriptural exceptions to the Biblical (not just Romans 13) commands to obey the authorities.

I realize this is unpleasant, but perhaps you should reconsider your position on this in light of God's Word. It seems unwise to contradict His revelation.
"In, but not of..." and Whom we serve. To serve God is the key. Yeshua made it clear that we have a choice; if you choose to serve any "entity" which WILL NOT ACKNOWLEDGE obedience to God (say, for instance, those black-robed priests of another god who deign to call themselves 'justices' - then WHO DO YOU SERVE? This point is about Authority. I acknowledge His (indeed, I am a bondservant to Him alone) and not any which DENIES Him. (See I John 4 for the passage I refer to as simply "the Test" -- and which the worldly 'rulers' of this post-Republic clearly FAIL.)
When a Roman officer—who served as close to a Babylon as you can get outside of Mesopotamia--came to Christ for help, with what words did Jesus rebuke him to turn him from his sin (as He did with prostitutes and false teachers)?

The answer is, Jesus didn't correct him by telling him to “come out of her,” He praised him for his faith.

Where does Christ condemn the sin of serving in government? Nowhere.

If you are a slave of Christ, then you know that He commands you to obey the authorities over you.
The lines of Authority drawn out in the Declaration, and codified in the Constitution, are clear, but have been turned on their head. [This is a topic I have studied, lectured on, done radio shows, and written about for several years; this note won't begin to do anything but summarize. I hope the outline will at least be clear.]

"We hold these Truths to be self-evident..."

men -- endowed by their Creator with Rights.

To SECURE these, men institute government...

...Authority comes from God, the Creator, to men. Men created government to secure those Rights, and delegated some power to their creation (original States), which then created a central government, and delegated a few enumerated powers to it. Anything created by THAT government is in turn subservient to it, and so on.
Speaking of turning things on their head: you are using a man-made document to interpret Scripture (to the point of contradicting God Himself!), rather than using God's Word to interpret a human work.

The Declaration says that “...governments are instituted among Men...,” but God says that He has established all authorities that exist. The Declaration says that government derives its “just power from the consent of the governed,” but God says that He has established all authorities that exist. The Declaration says that “when any government becomes destructive of these ends [securing our Rights to Life, Liberty, etc.,], it is the right of the people to alter or to abolish it,” but God says that he who rebels against the authority rebels against what He has established.

Among the works of Men, I do not see any greater document than the Declaration of Independence. The Founders were nearly all Christians, and they were great men. The ideals that “all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights, that among these are Life, Liberty, and the pursuit of Happiness, that to secure these rights governments are instituted among Men...,” are completely in line with the will of God as revealed in His word.

The Declaration is still only a human document.
This, in very brief, is why early followers of Messiah knew better than to allow Caesar to "incorporate" their ecclesia, for which failure to accede to Caesar's authority they were persecuted. It is today why those who know Whom they serve must NOT subject themselves to what Jefferson so long ago rightly called a "jurisdiction foreign to our constitution, and unacknowledged by our laws", calling the result "pretended Legislation".

I believe, as they did, that they were obedient to His Word when they "came out of her".
The Founders did not remove themselves from England because they were following some heterodox concept of holiness; they removed themselves from England because their mother country denied them their Rights as Englishmen, and when they stood up like men, Britain spilled their blood.
[NOWHERE in Scripture that I have seen does God tell us to vote, BTW. The only "elected" king I can find was Saul. Not a great example.]
Unless you find a truly good (just) man to be king, monarchy is a dangerous road to tread. Many have been monsters.

At least with our form of government, the People (by way of the Constitution) are the ultimate authority.
And may G-d bless you and keep you and give you His shalom...
It seems appropriate to end this post with the Apostle Paul:
You were once dead because of your failures and your uncircumcised corrupt nature. But God made you alive with Christ when he forgave all our failures.

He did this by erasing the charges that were brought against us by the written laws God had established. He took the charges away by nailing them to the cross. He stripped the rulers and authorities of their power and made a public spectacle of them as he celebrated his victory in Christ.

Therefore, let no one judge you because of what you eat or drink or about the observance of annual holy days, New Moon Festivals, or weekly worship days. These are a shadow of the things to come, but the body that casts the shadow belongs to Christ.

Let no one who delights in false humility and the worship of angels tell you that you don't deserve a prize. Such a person, whose sinful mind fills him with arrogance, gives endless details of the visions he has seen. He doesn't hold on to Christ, the head. Christ makes the whole body grow as God wants it to, through support and unity given by the joints and ligaments.

If you have died with Christ to the world's way of doing things, why do you let others tell you how to live? It's as though you were still under the world's influence. People will tell you, “Don't handle this! Don't taste or touch that!”

All of these things deal with objects that are only used up anyway.

These things look like wisdom with their self-imposed worship, false humility, and harsh treatment of the body. But they have no value for holding back the constant desires of your corrupt nature (Colossians 2).
Peace be with you.